A few novice Sturmey Archer AW questions ...

[mornview]

Recently bought and overhauled my first three speed hub, a 1974 Sturmey Archer AW. I have to say, I absolutely love the design of this hub, and I can't wait to build it up and try it out. But first, I need to ask a few questions:

1. Someone once told me that 3-speed hubs should only be laced up in a 2x pattern, because with their high flange they can create some pretty extreme angles in a 3x pattern. The flange diameter on my hub is 65mm, and will be laced to a single-wall 700c Araya rim. I've always laced 3x, so I thought I'd ask if 3x would be okay before I order spokes.

2. Okay, this one I feel dumb asking. The hub comes with these spacers:

Does one go on the inside of the dropouts and the other on the outside of the dropouts? Do they both go on the outside of the dropouts? Are they actually necessary for mounting the wheel? I ask because, if one of them goes on the inside of the dropouts, removing the washers would effectively change the hub's spacing, making it possible to mount to 110mm dropouts.

3. On a similar note, if I want to space this hub out, would I put additional washers between the cone and locknut? Or just in between the other washers?

4. I would like to operate the hub with a stick shifter, partially to reduce how much cable is on the bike, and partially because they just look cool. I would also like something that will work with both Shimano and Sturmey Archer hubs. Are my options basically finding an old Shimano Click Stick or Bendix stick shifter? Does anyone (besides Project 346) currently produce a 3 speed stick shifter?

5. As stated above, I love the design of this hub, and would love to get something similar in design with a coaster brake. Do the old coaster brake 3 speeds with an oil port get lubricated the same way as their non-coaster brake counterparts (grease on the ball bearings, oil on the pinions/pawls and in the oil port/hollow axle)? Is the brake shoe greased?

6. Lastly, I have a Shimano Nexus 3-speed coaster brake hub I got from Chuckz. This does not have an oil port, and the manual is a bit vague on describing how the hub is lubricated. There is no oil port on these hubs. Is oil used at all in these hubs? Or just grease?

Okay, that was exhaustive. Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[Bicycle808]

I'll do my best here:
1-I'd lave an AW 3x in a 26" rim. The Sturmey-Archer hubs with the drums have really big flanges, @90mm--- those would benefit from a 2x in a 26", but I think you're best off going 3x with an AW or similar hub.

2- The washer with the tab is called an anti-rotation washer. They can go with the tab facing in, if they're placed on the outside of the dropouts, or they can be used with the tab facing out, if they're placed inboard. The other washers are just like serrated to aid with grip. You absolutely NEED the anti-rotation washers; you don't need the other ones, but they can be helpful. I'm guessing that the bike you pulled this off of was spaced a bit wider than the hub is at the jam-nuts, so the anti-rotation washers were placed inboard to fill the dropots, and then the other washers were used to help the nutz get extra bite? In any case, in my experience, AW hubs tend to be spaced between 114 and 116mm, but there've been a lot of variants over the years....

3- If you want to increase the OLD, put spacers between the NDS (left) jam-nut and cone. This is harder to do smoothly on the coaster version, b/c the crankarm obviously gets further from the chainstay...

4- Ya got me... I never played with stickshifters on bikes. But, in myexperience, the throws between gears are spaced differently on a Sturmey-Archer shifter and most Shimano shifters. I think the main difference is on the throw between 2 and 3. Someone may've made version s that accounted for this, but...

5-Yep. Pretty much, an AWC is a AW with a coaster brake. Here's the AW parts list: https://web.archive.org/web/2014080....com/userfiles/manuals/AW_NIG_3_Speed_Hub.pdf
Here's the AWC:
file:///home/chronos/u-810e9826dcbfd50b20e2dc44c377e2e0b4eec72a/Downloads/awc.pdf Obviously, there are some differences, but the design is very close...
As for lubrication, well.... take a look-see here: http://www.permaco.com/en-us/dept_52.html This is the lube SA suggests.
The really light grease is for the internals, which would be getting oil in an older hub with a port. The medium stuff for the brake shoes is heavier, but still a much lower viscosity than the stuff for the bearings. I tend to use a light film of grease on these 3 speed coasters, b/c I don't want to gum-up the internals (which are close by) but I also don't want to buy three different kinds of lube from Sturmey. Works fine by my standards, but not exactly what Sturmey recommends.

6- Shimano seems to like to keep the care and feeding of their IGHs shrouded in mystery; I think the idea is they want you to take it to your licensed dealer for service, so he can tell you it's broken and sell you a new one. There are special Nexus-specific lubes out there tht you're supposed to use. http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=7794
This is supposed to be the only lube used; it's a pretty thin grease, if my memory serves me right...

HTH
-Rob

 

[Bicycle808]

PS there are sites out there, if you google them, where guys have drilled and ported their Nexus hubs and ran oil instead of grease.... and those guys seem pretty pleased with the results. I haven't done it myself at all, ever, but if I ran a Nexus, I believe I would have a go at it.

 

[mornview]

6- Shimano seems to like to keep the care and feeding of their IGHs shrouded in mystery; I think the idea is they want you to take it to your licensed dealer for service, so he can tell you it's broken and sell you a new one. There are special Nexus-specific lubes out there tht you're supposed to use. http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=7794
This is supposed to be the only lube used; it's a pretty think grease, if my memory serves me right...

HTH
-Rob

I love this ... mostly because I could see it actually being the truth.

Thanks for all the help, though, Rob. Incidentally, I didn't pull this hub off of any bike at all, I just got the hub itself at a super cheap price. That's partially why I have so many questions (like where to put the washer when mounting it). Beyond that, this is also pretty much my first foray into the world of 3 speed hubs (outside of some disasterous experiences with Shimano 333's). This AW seems like a pretty awesome place to start at, and I'm excited to get it laced up now and see how much of a difference having two extra gears makes.

 

[mornview]

PS there are sites out there, if you google them, where guys have drilled and ported their Nexus hubs and ran oil instead of grease.... and those guys seem pretty pleased with the results. I haven't done it myself at all, ever, but if I ran a Nexus, I believe I would have a go at it.

Cool, I would've never considered doing that. I don't know if the Nexus will be something I stick with; it was more of a situation where Chuckz had a deal that was too good to pass up. I plan to get my hands on an AWC at some point, but I'll still lace up this Nexus, and who knows, if I end up liking it, at least I have the option of porting it.

 

[Bicycle808]

Some thoughts occur:
-I found this site to be particularly informative: http://www.astounding.org.uk/ian/hubgear/index.html I was looking into porting a Velosteel, mostly b/c it's a disc-type coaster and lubrication can be a PITA, but ultimately decided that even trying to drill the hardened steel shell might be foolish. If you wanna try it on your nexus, the hubshell is aluminum and it should be easy...
-The other night, while reading up on Sheldon's site about what anti-rotation washers I need to run on my newly-acquired (thanks, RRB Member Ozzmonaut!) thoroughly-rad 1955 Sturmey-Archer 3speed Dynohub, i found this:
"When installed with its back facing a smaller part, an anti-rotation washer will be stressed, and a thin one may bend. It is a good idea to install a thick washer of equal or larger outside diameter behind the anti-rotation washer." This makes sense to me, so you probably do want to hold onto those other washers to keep the anti-rotation jawns stable...
-The cynical view I take on Shimano IGHs isn't simply about my pessimism; it's borne of the dearth of replacement parts and the lack of technical lit that Shimano offers; it seems obvious that they don't want us in there. Sturmey-Archer, on the other hand, offers a full line of repair/replacement parts, and they even offer backwards compatible parts or new-production parts for vintage hubs--- it helps that they haven't changed the design much on most of their 3 speed offerings, but let's be real: the AW and AWC are still available, new. Many of the "other" 3speeds (excepting the fixed-gear S3X) are basically the AW but with aluminum shells, although they offer a roatary-shift set-up that supposedly solves a lot of "problems" posed by the indicator chain, although I gotta say, I never had a problem with the indicator chain. Long story short: The situation from Sturmey-Archer seems to invite the home mechanic to maintain their own hubs, whereas Shimano seems to discourage it.
-I think you'll like having 3 gears. I'd suggest using your favorite singlespeed ratio as a starting point, and then go up or down based on your impressions of your default gear. It's almost always cheaper and easier to swap the rear sprocket than it is the front; the regular 3-spline "cogs" will work with your hub, and they come in sizes 13 to 22, and even larger if you're willing to hunt for them....

 

[mornview]

Yeah, I was planning on starting with my normal gear ratio and working from there. It's a bit hard for me to fathom what 133% of my current gear ratio will feel like, but I also don't see myself needing to go that fast very often either.

Everything about the AW just seems more mechanic-friendly. I know that I've heard people call Sturmey Archer's products "over-engineered" (not sure if that applies to the AW or not), but the design of the AW just seems so logical to me, whereas the 333 hub ... really did not.

I'm not sure if you have taken apart a Nexus 3 speed or not; any idea if Shimano is still designing their hubs like their old 3-speeds, or if they've chosen an internal assembly closer to the AW? Given the information I've seen online, I know that if I stick with the Nexus 3 for the long haul I will need to open it up periodically, and I'm curious if I'll be able to make sense of their design.

 

[Bicycle808]

I haven't had a Nexus apart in ages, and the time I did, it ended in disaster. I was working at an authorized dealer, see, and we ended up declaring the thing "broken". Most pro mechs and virtually all home tinkerers seem to prefer the Sturmey-Archers. But, yeah, as for how it compares to 333 hubs, I'd suggest consulting the interwebs for a schematic. Bear in mind that there were a number of internal redesigns of the 333, and probably of the Nexus as well....