Help! New Departure "D" spoke length?

[Brentley]

In a serious case of shoot first and ask questions later i promptly cut my New Departure model D (1/2" pitch) hubs from the rims (drop center 26") and did not save a solitary spoke . I thought the LBS could help and they could for the sum of $15 for sizing and $1 per spoke, an extended price of $87 for me to build them!! And there was no discussion of whether that included nipples...

I have seen spokes in the $0.25 range with nipples online but i don't know what size i need, if anyone knows the proper size or has the wheelset could measure.

On a side note if anyone has done a radial lace on the front let me know what size you used, i'd love to do a radial lace up front but at this point i will settle for getting these wheels rebuilt with the original cross 3.

 

[LowpowerD]

I've never do radial lacing so I can't help you there. If you are building 26" wheels you'll need 10 5/8" spokes. 3 cross in the front, 4 cross in the rear.

 

[SkidMark]

You can calculate spoke length online.

http://www.bikeschool.com/tools/spoke-length-calculator

You'll have to know a few dimensions. The ERD (Effective Rim Diameter) is can be measured by measuring the inside diameter of the rim and adding the thickness of the rim multiplied by 2.

I am going to advise against 4 cross in the rear because the spoke heads can often end up against the next spoke's elbow which will cause spokes to break. Cross 3 is the way to go.

Same up front if the front hub is really small in diameter. I use cross 2 on those tiny Schwinn hubs for instance.

Radial lacing may not be advisable on a small diameter 36 hole hub either. The spokes pull straight and can crack the hub flange, although this is more likely with an aluminum hub. If it were a 28 or 32 hole hub or a large flange 36 hole hub, radial lacing would not be a problem.

This is probably obvious, but don't radial lace a drum brake hub, or a rear hub.

 

[dougfisk]

As near as I can determine, the bike manufacturers used exclusively 269mm, 4cross, front and rear for 30 years of 26in balloon tire production. This is what your wheels had, if original. This is what I do.

 

[SkidMark]

For each cross you have an inbound and an outbound spoke. For cross-4 the outbound spoke crosses over 4 inbound spokes. These days wheels are built with the last cross laced under because it builds a stronger wheel. I do this to every wheel I ride on.

I have original coasterbrake wheels laced 4x and 3x. The front wheels are usually 3x too although some are 2x.

The only way two wheels the same diameter with different hub flange sizes could use the same length spokes is if they were laced differently. The smaller flange would have one less cross (like 4x rear and 3x front). I see this on 60's Schwinns quite a bit. I've also seen Schwinn spoke boxes labeled 10-5/8" which is 269.8mm.

This wheel is from a 50's Hiawatha. It is all original parts (New Departure coasterbrake), all I did was cross under the outbound spokes one cross at a time and re-tension the wheel. It's 4x but as you can see the inbound spoke head rests against the outbound spoke, and this can cause the outbound spoke to snap at the elbow. That is why I recommend 3x.

 

[dougfisk]

...I have original coasterbrake wheels laced 4x and 3x. The front wheels are usually 3x too although some are 2x....

When I said 30 years of production, I could have been more specific. On 26in balloon tired coaster brake bikes manufactured between 1935 and 1965 (or so) I have not seen anything but 268,269,270mm 4cross front and rear. The original poster said he has a ND hub, That would fall within my timeframe.

...The only way two wheels the same diameter with different hub flange sizes could use the same length spokes is if they were laced differently. The smaller flange would have one less cross (like 4x rear and 3x front)....

This is a misconception that is easy to fall for. With a 4cross the spoke angles off an imaginary line from axle to spoke hole at a perfect 90 degrees. With a 4cross the spoke length is not measurably affected by hub flange diameter. Strange but true!

I believe that OEM manufacturers used a 4cross for 2 reasons:

1) It is inherently the strongest lacing pattern;
2) Perhaps more importantly; the manufacturer needed to stock only 1 spoke length to fit all possible hubs on offer.

 

[B607]

Okay, I'll throw you guys a curve. Schwinn used spokes that were 10 19/32" with the longer nipples in the early 50's on ballooners. :shock:

Not sure on 3X or 4X for front or rear but they both take 10 5/8" spokes and have forever on old ballooners. Gary

 

[SkidMark]

The distinction of "balloon tire bikes" is an important one. The 3x wheels I have must be from middleweight cruisers.

4x is not always the strongest lacing pattern. It certainly isn't when the there is a spoke head rubbing against the elbow of the next spoke. In my direct experience this situation causes spokes to break. It will take a while but eventually you start popping spokes. Then again, I am using my cruiser as a Klunker, so I am placing demands on it that it was never intended for.

If it were indeed always stronger, then the majority of MTB wheels would be laced 4x. Companies who spend millions on R&D like Shimano would be using 4x instead of 3x on their disc brake hubs, which have braking forces considerably greater than any pedaling forces a rider can make.

If you calculate the spoke lengths, there is no way two hubs with a difference in flange size as extreme as the difference between a coasterbrake and the typical small flange front hub could be the same length. The likely situation is they are a little long in the back and a little short in the front. This has nothing to do with tangental lacing and it is not a misconception, it's math. The chances of a corporation fudging things to save a buck are pretty good if you ask me.

The only place I use 4x is on 27" or 700c wheels with high flange hubs.

But we are talking about balloon tire cruisers. If you want to keep it original 4x is the way to go. If you're heavy or plan on abusing the bike 3x is likely the better option.

 

[SkidMark]

Okay, I'll throw you guys a curve. Schwinn used spokes that were 10 19/32" with the longer nipples in the early 50's on ballooners. :shock:

Not shocking at all if it's a Bendix hub, because the pre-Red Band ones have a larger flange diameter.

 

[LowpowerD]

Wow, I didn't realize that my generalized statement would cause this much debate.

As dougfisk pointed out I did make one mistake. Standard vintage American style lacing is 4 cross front and rear.
I just went out to my garage and pulled out ten 26" bikes (ranging from '38 to '58) and all of them had 10 5/8" spokes. We're talking 26x2.125 or 26x1.75 single speed coasters here.

That's right a Morrow hub on a square shouldered rim has the same spoke length as a New Departure on a drop center.

There are a lot of factors that go into determining spoke length. Erd, number of crosses, spoke count, diameter of flanges and distance between flanges.

 

[LowpowerD]

If you calculate the spoke lengths, there is no way two hubs with a difference in flange size as extreme as the difference between a coasterbrake and the typical small flange front hub could be the same length. The likely situation is they are a little long in the back and a little short in the front. This has nothing to do with tangental lacing and it is not a misconception, it's math. The chances of a corporation fudging things to save a buck are pretty good if you ask me.
.

The truth is that a coaster brake hub and a small flange front hub DO use the same length spokes. Even though the flanges are different diameter, the equalizing factor is the distance between the flanges. Coasters are wider.

I do agree with you SkidMark on the strength thing. If I were to build a bike that was going to any type of jumping, I'd use 3 cross with one interweave.

 

[SkidMark]

Not buying it until I run the numbers. It's probably within 2mm. I usually build wheels with old hubs and new double-wall aluminum rims, and do the spoke calculator thing every time. It's nice to have access to a spoke cutter/threader.

That price quote for custom length spokes was ridiculous. It would never be more than $1.00 per spoke/nipple anywhere in Portland,OR. And setup charge? For setting the length of the spoke guide? This takes 2 seconds.

 

[Brentley]

Not buying it until I run the numbers. It's probably within 2mm. I usually build wheels with old hubs and new double-wall aluminum rims, and do the spoke calculator thing every time. It's nice to have access to a spoke cutter/threader.

That price quote for custom length spokes was ridiculous. It would never be more than $1.00 per spoke/nipple anywhere in Portland,OR. And setup charge? For setting the length of the spoke guide? This takes 2 seconds.

I think that the shop i went to didn't want to hassle with something they didn't specialize in, they aren't really know for doing wheel building, they just seemed a bit more receptive to my quest for cheap parts in prior trips. I think i'm going to shoot for the 270mm spokes and figure it out later if it's cross 3 or 4.

If it helps with any future advice on this thread the wheels were in use on a 50's ladies Hiawatha ballooner.