How I widened the stays on a Columbia Newsboy Special

[Critter1]

In light of all the RRBO talk about widening frames to fit bigger tires... I thought I'd share how I widened the stays on my RRBO7 Newsboy Special... Obviously not all frames are constructed the same, so this technique would only work on frames that have the "loop" type stays.

This was discussed extensively during the build off and approved by the masses. The frame retained its factory look and the mod is 99.9% not noticeable.. unless you happen to know the factory measurement between the stays!

Here is the tire clearance I was dealing with as I was planning on using a pair of Jerald slicks one way or another. This wasn't gonna work.. and I wasn't about to shove a 2x4 between the stays and stand on the frame. Not that there's anything wrong with that.. I just wanted this to be as clean as possible.
Upper:

Lower:

After staring at the frame and pondering the cleanest way to do it, I decided cut the frame in half just ahead of the stays and melt the brazing away. I completed the upper and lower one at a time to keep the frame square. I also bolted a coaster hub into the dropouts.
The first cut always hurts the worst..

Upper:

Lower:

I cut the loop part of the stay in the middle and I welded in a 3/4" spacer the same diameter as the stays.

Now I welded the frame pieces back in place and cleaned up the welds.

..and re-brazed the other end back to the stay/loop.

Look factory? YES.


Here is the clearance I ended up with.

 

[Uncle Stretch]

Nice job. Good documentation/pictures. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I'm not much on brazing but I do like cutting them apart and changing stuff.

 

[deven_science]

That's how you did it!? That's a lot of work hidden in the finished product.

 

[CCR]

I just appreciate all the work you showed just for a smidge of change. Still love that bike. The fender mount was an awesome detail too !!!

 

[Rat Rod]

Finished Bike >> viewtopic.php?f=68&t=59878

 

[abe lugo]

The is great info or how to post, can you also chime in, if the rear fender was modified in the area where the rear dropouts come close to it?

 

[LukeTheJoker]

Very nice how-to!

Luke.

 

[Critter1]

Thanks guys.

The is great info or how to post, can you also chime in, if the rear fender was modified in the area where the rear dropouts come close to it?

I'm not sure I follow your question... The fender started out as one Monark deep fender and was cut up to make the front and rear. Both pieces have been quite modified.

 

[abe lugo]

Basically did the widening modification allow for the wide fender to fit? or did you add notches to the fender to allow the fender to fit between the rear stays? How did you do it did you make a buck or something?

 

[Critter1]

I still had to dimple the fenders some to fit between the stays and fork. All I did was open my vise about an inch, lay the edge of the fender on it, then lay a chisel flat on the fender and pound it until I had the right depth.

 

[Dan-E-boy]

Thanks for sharing this.. I had to widen the stays on a project before,I chose to heat the stays with a torch and stretched them using clamps.. it worked as far as making room but it didn't look clean at all. Dented the tubing worse then I thought it would.. the extra effort in doing it this way definitely shows.. great work

 

[Funkme]

That is definitely a cool bike. I didn't even remembered you widened it. And since I am one of those troublesome folks who keeps bringing up frame modifications, here is the point: I don't care if anyone changes their frame in any manner, which is why I never complained during the build last year. It simply did not matter to me. It did not affect my bike any. But no one should have to rely on the approval of others for a change they want to make. It should be clear in the rules whether or not a modification is okay so no runs into the situation where they have to hope a group "vote" okays the change. It causes confusion and hard feelings for anyone who does not have their own modification idea approved. But so as not to divert the thread, I will now shut up about it! But I have no problem with what you did.

Anyway, the interesting thing I find here is not so much the modification, but the brazing itself. I have never tried brazing before. It looks like it could be a very useful thing.

Was wanting to do a gender bender modification,cut the girls bar and weld in a boys top bar for the build off...But I wasnt sure if that is allowed in the rules? As it states no frame altering? I was thinking it falls under swapping...lol So Peatbog I guess that would be out of the ? jus thought u might have a clearer idea on rules....Im all for changes etc,but dont want 2 bend any noses....I liked critters bike and the widening of the stays was xcellent....
Rule 3. Must use factory frame....no altering of original frame structure/geometry
(grinding off fender tabs and cutting seat tube height is okay, just no major frame design changes).

 

[tvc15]

Great stuff here!

 

[Critter1]

That is definitely a cool bike. I didn't even remembered you widened it. And since I am one of those troublesome folks who keeps bringing up frame modifications, here is the point: I don't care if anyone changes their frame in any manner, which is why I never complained during the build last year. It simply did not matter to me. It did not affect my bike any. But no one should have to rely on the approval of others for a change they want to make. It should be clear in the rules whether or not a modification is okay so no runs into the situation where they have to hope a group "vote" okays the change. It causes confusion and hard feelings for anyone who does not have their own modification idea approved. But so as not to divert the thread, I will now shut up about it! But I have no problem with what you did.

Anyway, the interesting thing I find here is not so much the modification, but the brazing itself. I have never tried brazing before. It looks like it could be a very useful thing.

Was wanting to do a gender bender modification,cut the girls bar and weld in a boys top bar for the build off...But I wasnt sure if that is allowed in the rules? As it states no frame altering? I was thinking it falls under swapping...lol So Peatbog I guess that would be out of the ? jus thought u might have a clearer idea on rules....Im all for changes etc,but dont want 2 bend any noses....I liked critters bike and the widening of the stays was xcellent....
Rule 3. Must use factory frame....no altering of original frame structure/geometry
(grinding off fender tabs and cutting seat tube height is okay, just no major frame design changes).

Thanks Funk. I wasn't trying to start a debate with this thread. Just wanted to show show what I did. In my opinion, this wasn't a "major frame design change". A cut off seat tube is more noticeable than what was done here.

 

[Funkme]

That is definitely a cool bike. I didn't even remembered you widened it. And since I am one of those troublesome folks who keeps bringing up frame modifications, here is the point: I don't care if anyone changes their frame in any manner, which is why I never complained during the build last year. It simply did not matter to me. It did not affect my bike any. But no one should have to rely on the approval of others for a change they want to make. It should be clear in the rules whether or not a modification is okay so no runs into the situation where they have to hope a group "vote" okays the change. It causes confusion and hard feelings for anyone who does not have their own modification idea approved. But so as not to divert the thread, I will now shut up about it! But I have no problem with what you did.

Anyway, the interesting thing I find here is not so much the modification, but the brazing itself. I have never tried brazing before. It looks like it could be a very useful thing.

Was wanting to do a gender bender modification,cut the girls bar and weld in a boys top bar for the build off...But I wasnt sure if that is allowed in the rules? As it states no frame altering? I was thinking it falls under swapping...lol So Peatbog I guess that would be out of the ? jus thought u might have a clearer idea on rules....Im all for changes etc,but dont want 2 bend any noses....I liked critters bike and the widening of the stays was xcellent....
Rule 3. Must use factory frame....no altering of original frame structure/geometry
(grinding off fender tabs and cutting seat tube height is okay, just no major frame design changes).

Thanks Funk. I wasn't trying to start a debate with this thread. Just wanted to show show what I did. In my opinion, this wasn't a "major frame design change". A cut off seat tube is more noticeable than what was done here.

Not debating,just asking a ?,if that would be going to far cutting the girls bar off and placing a boys bar in..Thought Peatbog might know...Or you? Maybe I would be pushin it to far....lol
Wanted to get a heads up for me ... As you know some people get upset....Brilliant job you did, lot of work involved... Keep up the great builds.

 

[Funkme]

Hi, Funkme. The 2013 bike build-off rules may allow more and varied frame modifications, so maybe you will not have any issue at all. The main issue seems to be this rule: "...no altering of original frame structure/geometry." However, the "structure" part of the rules have been ignored repeatedly so that does not seem to be an issue with anyone. It is the "geometry" part of the rules that seem to be a concern to people. The frame widening that Critter1 did on his bike did not change the geometry of the frame. This is frame geometry:

Even if last year's rules about frame geometry are used instead of an "anything goes" type of rule, I wouldn't have a problem with the frame modification you suggest because you would not be changing the geometry of the frame. That is, the relationship, spacing, and angles of the head tube, bottom bracket, and seat tube would be the same, and the effective top tube, chain stay, seat tube lengths and such would be exactly the same as before if all you did is change the top tube location. That is what geometry is. But the opinions of others may vary. For example, someone became rather animated when I suggested putting a curve in seat stays that were originally straight even though that changes the geometry of the frame not at all, so there is a difference of opinion on the matter. Strangely though, others have flipped (top to bottom) girl's frames and welded on new bottom brackets and this completely changes nearly every angle and effective tube length on the bike and yet no one has a problem with that modification. Others have changed rear axle dropout locations which changes the effective seat stay and chain stay length and their respective angles, but that has not been considered a problem either. Your modification changes no effective tube lengths or any angles associated with the relationship of bottom bracket, seat tube, head tube, axle location and such. But again, there seems to be a confusion of opinion on the subject of frame modifications. Some frame modifications that partially or even completely alter the geometry of the frame are allowed without a peep of complaint from anyone, yet minor modifications such as the one you suggest would be sure to cause an uproar. It is not logical. Some would say your intended modification is a rule-breaker because you would be changing the "profile" of the frame, but the profile thing is not something that is in the rules; it is just an opinion that some have and is totally meaningless anyway since flipping a girl's frame, lengthening dropouts or moving their location entirely, and such does the exact same thing as far as altering the profile. Anyway, here is a thread concerning the subject where you might be able to obtain more opinions and create a discussion that would better answer your question:

http://www.ratrodbikes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=66670&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=rrbbo+8

It is probably better to go there because more people concerned with the matter will see your question since that is the subject of the thread.

Cool Thanx for that,as it was a bit confusing...Changing bar positions,changes the design but not really the shape....Sorry Critter1 probably wasnt the right thread to ask this question on,but I was scouting how to widen stays and it was just easier to ask here.....

 

[Critter1]

No worries Funk! I knew it would come up during this thread. Good luck with RRBB8!

 

[chepe13]

In light of all the RRBO talk about widening frames to fit bigger tires... I thought I'd share how I widened the stays on my RRBO7 Newsboy Special... Obviously not all frames are constructed the same, so this technique would only work on frames that have the "loop" type stays.

This was discussed extensively during the build off and approved by the masses. The frame retained its factory look and the mod is 99.9% not noticeable.. unless you happen to know the factory measurement between the stays!

Here is the tire clearance I was dealing with as I was planning on using a pair of Jerald slicks one way or another. This wasn't gonna work.. and I wasn't about to shove a 2x4 between the stays and stand on the frame. Not that there's anything wrong with that.. I just wanted this to be as clean as possible.
Upper:

Lower:

After staring at the frame and pondering the cleanest way to do it, I decided cut the frame in half just ahead of the stays and melt the brazing away. I completed the upper and lower one at a time to keep the frame square. I also bolted a coaster hub into the dropouts.
The first cut always hurts the worst..

Upper:

Lower:

I cut the loop part of the stay in the middle and I welded in a 3/4" spacer the same diameter as the stays.

Now I welded the frame pieces back in place and cleaned up the welds.

..and re-brazed the other end back to the stay/loop.

Look factory? YES.


Here is the clearance I ended up with.

Very cool, I have a Columbia frame that I am trying to squeeze some schwalbe fat franks into. Is this my only option? Or can I. Bolt in a spare hub and use a scissor jack or coil compressor to spread the stays?

 

[Critter1]

You could do the scissor jack method and it'll probably work fine. I just chose to do it this way to make it as clean and unnoticeable as possible.