texas fireman's cruzer

[Bendix]

i figured the macneil thread had kinda turned into a tfc thread. anyway, it looks like some folks think the seat tube angle is wrong for this bike, some folks think the head angle is wrong for this bike, some folks think the top tube is wrong for this bike,some folks think the brakes are wrong for this bike, some folks think having front brakes is wrong for this bike, BUT the folks that actually own one seem to think the whole package works really well! preferring a bmx that can actually be ridden to the track, and wishing i hadn't sold my king sting, i think i want to know more about the current crop of big bmx

 

[Rat Rod]

One here that was posted a while back too. :wink:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6188

 

[SkidMark]

Considering the only thing that seperates one bike from another is geometry I think it is an important consideration. A 23.5 long top tube and a 66 degree seat angle would be good for someone 6 feet tall or over but not so good for someone like me who is 5'9". It may comfortable for cruising but I would also want to ride it as a singlespeed MTB, and ride it to the trails, so it would need to fit right. I don't think I'm being snooty or nit-picking, or even expecting too much. Their bikes are really nice and about one step away from being custom with all the options, maybe they could add some different frame sizes (S,M,L would work).

 

[Bendix]

apples & oranges

Considering the only thing that seperates one bike from another is geometry I think it is an important consideration. A 23.5 long top tube and a 66 degree seat angle would be good for someone 6 feet tall or over but not so good for someone like me who is 5'9". It may comfortable for cruising but I would also want to ride it as a singlespeed MTB, and ride it to the trails, so it would need to fit right. I don't think I'm being snooty or nit-picking, or even expecting too much. Their bikes are really nice and about one step away from being custom with all the options, maybe they could add some different frame sizes (S,M,L would work).

all valid mtb points, but why expect an "old school bmx" cruiser to be a competent xc ss mtb? the world abounds with cookie cutter 73/71 frames for that! i have no dog in this fight, but the more i google the more intrigued i become by the different takes on bmx geometry......

 

[SkidMark]

more like apples and bananas

If you can find some sort of a precendent for a 66 degree seat angle AND 23.5" top tube on a 26" BMX cruiser point me to it. The current O.M. Flyer is 71ht/73st...hmmm...that's not what it was BITD. I like looptail back ends, I think Yeti might be the only MTB that had one, and it probably didn't have slotted rear-exit dropouts. If I were to race that bike on a BMX track it would still be too long for me, and I am average height. A 71 to 73 degree headtube and a seat tube angle in between 69 and 71 degrees is much more in keeping with it's old school/retro BMX design. I won't say anything about top tube length because almost all old school BMX stuff ain't long enough.

As far as singlespeed MTB offerings go they all have front suspension, so really the only thing out there if you want a rigid bike to ride on singletrack is a BMX cruiser, or an old MTB with horizontal dropouts, like I have. You could also have a Klunker, if you don't mind the weight.

I just think if you are going to have "one size fits all" it should be medium/large not XL.

 

[Bendix]

Re: more like apples and bananas

If you can find some sort of a precendent for a 66 degree seat angle AND 23.5" top tube on a 26" BMX cruiser point me to it. The current O.M. Flyer is 71ht/73st...hmmm...that's not what it was BITD. I like looptail back ends, I think Yeti might be the only MTB that had one, and it probably didn't have slotted rear-exit dropouts. If I were to race that bike on a BMX track it would still be too long for me, and I am average height. A 71 to 73 degree headtube and a seat tube angle in between 69 and 71 degrees is much more in keeping with it's old school/retro BMX design. I won't say anything about top tube length because almost all old school BMX stuff ain't long enough.

As far as singlespeed MTB offerings go they all have front suspension, so really the only thing out there if you want a rigid bike to ride on singletrack is a BMX cruiser, or an old MTB with horizontal dropouts, like I have. You could also have a Klunker, if you don't mind the weight.

I just think if you are going to have "one size fits all" it should be medium/large not XL.

again, mostly valid points- there are nearly limitless rigid ss options though. redline, surly, soma, haro, or nearly any modern mtb frame w/a tensioner and an aftermarket susp-corrected rigid fork. of course no one bike can be perfect for everybody, but occaisionally i've ridden bikes i would have rejected offhand on paper that challenged what i 'knew' about frame geometry

 

[SkidMark]

I think you think I am putting down the Fireman's Texas Cruiser. I think it is a very good bike, that would only be better if it were available in a size more friendly to those of average height. Thing is, I think if was serious about buying one they would make me one an inch shorter.

I like looptail frames, so that limits to two manufacturers, SE and Fireman's. I would prefer to keep my money in America, which is another reason the the FTC is a good choice.

All these bikes you mention are really good choices if you don't mind sending your money to Taiwan, which lately has been bothering me, probably because I've been getting into BMX (again). I think the Redline Monocog might be made here, and maybe Soma. Another one that's good is ON*ONE, which are British made.

What I know about frame geometry is based on riding a lot of different bikes, building choppers and paying attention to rake and trail, and breifly working for Haro in the late 80's as their draftsman. I learned most of what I know from Bob and Linn Kastan. I am still learning more, and feel like I have even more to learn, as I am in the planning stages for building some singlespeed frames.

I've always thought of a singlespeed chain tensioner (like the Surly Singlelator) as a Mickey Mouse approach and they don't work with fixed, if you run a flip-flop hub. Kind of the same thing with "suspension-corrected" forks, which may or may not take into account the fact that geometry is different for bikes with suspension: the steering angle is slacker and the bottom bracket is higher.

My idea is to have one all-purpose 26" bike, something I can use to ride on technical singletrack and that I can jump with, and ride around town.

I'd like to think we've been discussing this subject and not arguing, so I hope I haven't ruffled any feathers.

 

[Bendix]

i certainly agree (as much as i like certain surly products) the singleator definitely has large, round ears......

 

[socal_jack]

I've always thought of a singlespeed chain tensioner (like the Surly Singlelator) as a Mickey Mouse approach and they don't work with fixed, if you run a flip-flop hub. Kind of the same thing with "suspension-corrected" forks, which may or may not take into account the fact that geometry is different for bikes with suspension: the steering angle is slacker and the bottom bracket is higher.

Suspension corrected forks do come in different crown heights to take into account the fork travel they are replacing so as not to mess up the intended geometry.

The Surly Singulator actually works quite well if you use as suggested with a 3/32 chain( single speed version of 3/32 is even better) in the "push up" mode and stay away from the micro-drive. Here's my setup (36/22), pulled off the "ears" replaced jockey wheel with sealed bearing unit, still had the 1/8 chain in this pic, too much slop even though it's an SRAM PC-1 model intended for single-speed use(and noisy). The "push down" mode use of the singulator also introduces alot of slop as teh jockey wheel has built-in play and you are pulling it away from the cog. Good advice from Surly here http://www.surlybikes.com/spew3.html. It's now as quiet as a fixie, err except when I stop pedaling

Use it on my Redline fake BMX cruiser(72SA/69HA although layback probably makes it about 69 SA effectively), this bike handles excellent on single track, and rides great on the street. Strong enough frame/fork to do jumps. I ride this bike more than my old cruisers due to its versatility, lightness, and .... it's just fun to ride. (get stopped and asked about it quite a bit also). (Note singulator tension was not fully adjusted in this shot, I was experimenting with chains and stuff) Couldn't beat the deal on this frame, and I don't think Redline ever made a 26" cruiser so what the heck. (and it has real brakes :wink: )

Seems like on the early 26" BMX cruisers, there were 2 schools of thought; 1) the 3-bar inspired crowd, powerlite, cook, S&S, laguna etc that more mimiced the pre-war Schwinn cruisers using 67-69 HA and something around 69-70 for an SA. 2) the OM Flyers etc that more mimiced the geometry of the smaller race/cruiser BMX bikes featuring steeper HA and SA. The TFC is an oddity for a 26" cruiser in that it has scaled up the geometry from something more like a Crupi mini.

 

[SkidMark]

But is the "intended geometry" taking into account sag and the extra height of the bottom bracket to allow for suspension travel? A bike with suspension has a slacker head angle because most of the time the suspension will be slightly compressed. So when you put on a "suspension corrected" fork does it maintain the bikes geometry with the shock locked out, in other words with a steering angle much slacker and a bottom bracket much higher than on a rigid singlespeed?

For example ON*ONE's "suspension corrected" fork has a much lower crown height than the suspension fork it replaces, specifically to address these issues. As far as I know they are the only company that has put that much thought into it.

The Singlelator works but it is an extra part, and will not work with fixed, a consideration for some. Sometimes there is a sprocket combination that will work with whatever chainstay length you have, sometimes a half-link will work, and there is also the White Industries ENO hub.

 

[socal_jack]

I think the intended geometry is the neutral position. In other words when you are on the bike both front and rear suspension will sag. In roughly equivalent amounts this will balance overall as full susser bikes are designed to put you in the middle so to speak, on the trail of course the geometry changes with terrain but over the years as riders have gotten more agressive going downhill the accepted amount of front head angle has decreased although some of that due to increased suspension travel. But you are rarely cornering at full suspension travel. For front only suspension there will be sag and you must choose a fork to get the sag, most foroks recommend and inch or so. In my own case, I have found that less head angle is more stable for high speed cornering and I think that's what the general move has been as DH/Freeride bikes like mine now run 65-67 or less. Granted downhill cornering will decrease that but you don't want the head angle to go too steep or you invite a certain biff. I had a rigid Bridgestone MTB designed by Grant Peterson BITD had a 71 or 72 or so head angle, fine for slower speed quick cornering on some singletrack, but for high speed descent, very twitchy. The real downside to the slack HA is going uphill as the front wheel is apt to dance around a bit. The pre-war mtbs were pretty much all 67 or so HA with a rigid fork very good for a Repack run and street cruising.

Not many folks running fixed with no brakes off-road, so the singulator works in most cases. The ENO hub or EBB both can work but once again an extra part with their own issues. Track forks/dropouts in the rear are always the best answer for SS, but it's nice to be able to run QRs. On One has their take on the "corrected" forks like many others. The DMR Trailblade 2 that I run probably lowers the front HA just a tad from what the unloaded original Skookum was but that was offered as a hardtail and would only have front sag, but it's still a very good compromise, and I looked around at many forks before pulling the trigger on that one.

 

[SkidMark]

I ride fixed off-road, and I have both brakes, and you still do a fair amount of traction and speed control with your legs, so a Singlelator would get pushed around.

I wouldn't call an ENO an extra part, you have a hub no matter what :mrgreen:

I didn't want to be presumptuous and say that fork lowered your front end (and the bb and steepened the ht) but you tell me it did, and that's what I was getting at.

I know one of the MTB manufacturer sites has a head angle/fork offset/trail calculator, it would be a big help in determining what a different fork will do to your frame.

 

[socal_jack]

Didn't realize you were running fixed off-road, singulator will absolutely not work in that case.

Maybe extra part was exaggerating but there is an extra adjustment to be made and re-lacing to be done. If they made a beefier and ISIS version of the ENO BB I'd considering ditching the singulator for that.

I was just guessing about the drop on the Redline from eyeballing the factory photo versus mine, if it is lower it's like I said "a tad" doubt it changes anything more than 0.5 degree which doesn't bother me. The Trailblade had a stated A2C(9mm version) of 435mm as I recall , the Redline was spec'd with a 100mm Zoke Dirt Jam Pro which should have been roughly equivalent given the offsets, maybe short side to the Trailblade(usually 445 mm considered good for 80-100mm). The 2 real reference points are the stated BB height on the Redline and the pic from the website, but you have to know under what condition the BB measurement was made as stated is 11.8", I'm measuring ~12.5" but I think that is due to the high volume tires raising both ends of the bike compared to stock tires(I've actually had people ask me if this was a 29er). From the pic on their website below, granted from an angle which skews the apparent chainstay drop angle but it appears very similar possibly ever so slightly more down on mine but probably not given the angle of the factory photo.

Next step I guess is get a level and a protractor