Dérailleur, Cassette, Chain + Shifter= sloppy skipping bike or Why Cassettes Suck

[franconuevo]

In my biz of fixing up regular bikes for reg'lar people..I found this cool old Huffy Stalker Frame w. gears no wheels '95ish, I would guess.
Steel bike but very lite-weight. Figured I'd clean it paint it get it running fine and do what I do...sell it. No prob.
Basically 99.9 percent of bikes I find or locate to resell have freewheels not cassette hubs. I'm used to working with freewheels, they are so easy, I bought one little freewheel remover tool for 'Shimano' type that I've used on every freewheel for the past 2 years..easyaspie. I know little about cassettes. I don't think I want to.

**I did read the excellent thread by our friend IndyJPS below, and had a headache after page 2, TMI..(but, I do respect those of you who know how many mm. the cable stretches after one 'click', depending on routing, the inside diameter of the housing, what tensile strength the inner cable is, if the shifter is calibrated to the exact, ummm..calibration I guess, if the stretch in the cable exceeds one dyne per erg etc. don't get me wrong please.) **

It's just that I want an easy way of knowing which rear Der. will work with a cassette,a Freewheel, or both. NOW.. this bike has friction shifters, so theoretically a gear cluster indexed or not shouldn't care how it's being pulled, I mean you can pull the cable with your hand , or a stick and it should move, right?
So. maybe it has to be either
1. the chain, although I cleaned it lubed it it looks good like on all the bikes I 'flip'
2. Front Sprocket: highly unlikely, it's one piece crank running on middle ring. Solid as steel.
3. Shifter: some no name friction shifter moves with ease. all cleaned and lubed cables look clean and nice.
4. Rear Dérailleur: Techtra, shifts fine moves up and down the ring when I have bike upside down and testing.
5. Cassette / Free-hub: Since I sold out all of my bikes recently, I only had a couple of donor wheels with cassettes

Works fine when bike is upside down and running through gears, Add my weight (175lbs. 79kg.) and hard pedal it to test..I can't go more than 3 ft in any gear before it's skipping out of control.

I'll take Easiest "not too technical answer" for 800 Alex.

(besides just buy a Megarange freewheel ?, as Luke suggested to me a year ago, should have earlier.. I just ordered 6 of them unless of course that is part of a not too technical answer. ;-)

thanks so much

franco

 

[Bicycle808]

Guaranteed, your problem is not a cassette vs freewheel problem.... Normally, in a case like this, I'd worry that your shifter is too loose to hold tension, or that the springs and/or bushings are whooped in the rear derailer. But, looking at your pictures, in your case, I wonder if your RD cable is anchored sufficiently to keep cable tension uniform. I know some of these Huffies were zip-tied, and I have even "tuned" a couple of those up, but if that zip-tie is allowing the housing to move at all, it will effect the cable tension enough for some fairly extreme ghost shifting.

The approach I'd take:
-make sure the zip ties on the downtube and chainstay are tight enough that they cable can't wiggle at all.
-ride the bike. If it's still ghost-shifting, take careful note of the shifter's position, and make sure that it isn't actual moving towards the high (small) rear sprockets, which will happen if the derailer's springs are too strong for the shifter's tension. If the shifter seems to be moving at all, tighten the screw on that thumbshifter and see if it improves. The shifter should not move at all unless you've shifted it yourself.
-see if that derailer is sloppy or not. a thrashed derailer might hold position on the stand or flipped, but it will get sloppy under load in real riding conditions.

The good news is, friction thumbies and basic shifters are cheap/free from donor bikes, so if you can't get the shifter to hold tension and/or you can't get the shifter to stay in-line, it won't be a big cost to replace'm with wimilar stuff. Just don't play with the RAM derailers; they won't get the full range under friction.

HTH. Tried to keep it simple.
-Rob

 

[furyus]

Yet another reason to ride BMX.

furyus

 

[Bicycle808]

They made some BMX bikes with derailers... ever see one of these?

 

[franconuevo]

Thanks guys. It's funny, I usually sell mostly BMX or Cruisers, but lately got a good run on Mountain bikes for some odd reason. plus I want to up my knowledge of gears, shifters, dérailleurs, since I get calls for repairs too.
I seem to have it down pretty well when working with freewheels, but cassettes stump me for some reason.
Never saw one of those rear bmx hubs with ders. Rob. looks 'spensive.
Mostly I like to make composite builds..like make a mtn bike into a cruiser..or convert a mtn bike to a S.S.
Furyus I love to ride BMX...sometimes with a twist though

 

[franconuevo]

Guaranteed, your problem is not a cassette vs freewheel problem.... Normally, in a case like this, I'd worry that your shifter is too loose to hold tension, or that the springs and/or bushings are whooped in the rear derailer. But, looking at your pictures, in your case, I wonder if your RD cable is anchored sufficiently to keep cable tension uniform. I know some of these Huffies were zip-tied, and I have even "tuned" a couple of those up, but if that zip-tie is allowing the housing to move at all, it will effect the cable tension enough for some fairly extreme ghost shifting.

The approach I'd take:
-make sure the zip ties on the downtube and chainstay are tight enough that they cable can't wiggle at all.
-ride the bike. If it's still ghost-shifting, take careful note of the shifter's position, and make sure that it isn't actual moving towards the high (small) rear sprockets, which will happen if the derailer's springs are too strong for the shifter's tension. If the shifter seems to be moving at all, tighten the screw on that thumbshifter and see if it improves. The shifter should not move at all unless you've shifted it yourself.
-see if that derailer is sloppy or not. a thrashed derailer might hold position on the stand or flipped, but it will get sloppy under load in real riding conditions.

The good news is, friction thumbies and basic shifters are cheap/free from donor bikes, so if you can't get the shifter to hold tension and/or you can't get the shifter to stay in-line, it won't be a big cost to replace'm with wimilar stuff. Just don't play with the RAM derailers; they won't get the full range under friction.

HTH. Tried to keep it simple.
-Rob

Agreed. That zip tie system is for the birds. gotta get some dedicated cable clips for sure. And while I'm at it, order some thumbies with new cable too to have in stock.


I also wonder if it could be the pawls and springs in the freehub itself are toast. But, I'll go thru your list first.

 

[1oldbikelover]

Are your cassette rings worn? Any missing metal on the teeth or flattened tips? Look at chain alignment with front and rear ring(s) and make sure chain is seating on teeth evenly and not off center. Not sure condition of your tranny gear but on my mtn bike that's used hard, it's good to change worn front rings, rear cassette and chain and rear derailleur if it's been beaten up with rocks/roots and doesn't work properly. Also, check the teeth on your rear derailleur wheels.....they're plastic and can wear quickly with a metal chain running over them. Good luck!

 

[franconuevo]

Are your cassette rings worn? Any missing metal on the teeth or flattened tips? Look at chain alignment with front and rear ring(s) and make sure chain is seating on teeth evenly and not off center. Not sure condition of your tranny gear but on my mtn bike that's used hard, it's good to change worn front rings, rear cassette and chain and rear derailleur if it's been beaten up with rocks/roots and doesn't work properly. Also, check the teeth on your rear derailleur wheels.....they're plastic and can wear quickly with a metal chain running over them. Good luck!

All good advice, thanks 1oldbikelover...the cassette actually looks excellent, that's why I wonder if it's the internal freehub.?

Originally I wondered why the problem with this particular bike..
First time really trying to retrofit a cassette and not a freewheel. i'LL TRACK it down though YOU BETCHA, it's a good little mini course in following the loop around to see where the hitch is.

And, as some of you may know, when reselling perfectly viable bikes instead of watching scrappers take them to the crusher, one must build boxes of 'inventory' of parts, there is no way to buy a new cassette, new chain, new shifters, guide wheels , etc. and then get $85 bucks for a clean running bike..(If you're lucky). Considering I spend half the day cleaning and detailing it..Cleanest used bikes in town.
If a part isn't working, I either repair it...or toss it and grab something else from the stash. I put new tubes in every bike I sell because they're cheap insurance , you know..so that the new owner won't have a flat by the time he or she gets home.
franco

 

[horsefarmer]

My experience with this 1987 Raleigh Cityscape Skyline.

As found, bike was out in weather for years, cables and rear derailleur stuck. I thought I'd just swap shifters cables and rear derailleur from 80's girls Huffy and be good to go as both were Shimano 6 speeds and everything worked great on the Huffy...
Not sure what I was doing, I did not utilize the existing cable stops but just left the way to long shift cables to flop around.

Horrible shifting resulted! But after advise from this forum, I redid cables using factory routing and cable stops - now it shifts great with same derailleur and index shifter from the donor Huffy.

 

[franconuevo]

My experience with this 1987 Raleigh Cityscape Skyline.

As found, bike was out in weather for years, cables and rear derailleur stuck. I thought I'd just swap shifters cables and rear derailleur from 80's girls Huffy and be good to go as both were Shimano 6 speeds and everything worked great on the Huffy...
Not sure what I was doing, I did not utilize the existing cable stops but just left the way to long shift cables to flop around.

Horrible shifting resulted! But after advise from this forum, I redid cables using factory routing and cable stops - now it shifts great with same derailleur and index shifter from the donor Huffy.

Thanks Horsefarmer, that seems like the first line of attack for sure. I'm giving that bike a little 'rest' right now, because the other day I was just about to chop it up for tubing.

So, I just move on to something else and then I'll revisit it in a couple of days...trying these tips I betcha it'll be on the road before you know it.

 

[1oldbikelover]

Glad to hear you do your best to keep 'em out of the scrap pile! I'm the same way. If I can fix something inexpensively and give it to someone who could use it, I'm all over it!

 

[Duchess]

If you're intent on zip ties, they might hold tighter if you use a second zip tie around the primary zip tie between the tube and the cable housing and use that second tie to cinch up the primary tie tighter.

 

[SILVERKINGPC]

When looking at the chain closely, it looks to be too wide for the 7spd cassette. This could be making the chain ramp up and down on the teeth of the cogs when you load it. If the chain is the correct width, measure the chain pin c/l to pin c/l @ the 12" mark, and if the measurement is over 1/32" or longer than 12", the chain is stretched.
You might also be suspect of a blown ratchet in the freewheel or cassette mechanism. To determine that, when pedaling and the bike is skipping, look down at the cluster to see if the chain is riding up or dropping down on the cogs when skipping. If not, the freewheel/cassette ratchet is blown and is the cause of the constant skipping..good luck! skpc..

 

[franconuevo]

Glad to hear you do your best to keep 'em out of the scrap pile! I'm the same way. If I can fix something inexpensively and give it to someone who could use it, I'm all over it!

You got it my man. Bikes come in ALL shapes and sizes and styles. We live in a disposable society and it sure does show. I have taken bikes that look so beat you think.."no way".. and make them look and ride so nice, it's something to be proud of, (even if it isn't an old Colson with 'yet' another set of springer forks on the front. any two top tube bike that gets the same treatment..after awhile, they all look the same..that's a story for another post another time I suppose)
One can clean a bike and make it usable again, or even 'ratt' or redesign a newer (80s 90s bike). That's all I seem to find, so that's what I work with. Still beats punchin' a clock at a job you hate and calling that a life.
it depends what you find I guess.
F.

 

[1oldbikelover]

A greater reward is when you give someone a bike to start with and they begin to share our passion for bikes and bike riding!

 

[franconuevo]

If you're intent on zip ties, they might hold tighter if you use a second zip tie around the primary zip tie between the tube and the cable housing and use that second tie to cinch up the primary tie tighter.

Hi Duchess...no, I'm not intent on zip ties..It just came with cables flopping , so I threw a couple on there to see if I could coax a little shifting action.

 

[franconuevo]

A greater reward is when you give someone a bike to start with and they begin to share our passion for bikes and bike riding!

OR... even better, bike wrenching, 1-O-bikelover. I sold two bikes last week to a super young guy who wanted to get more into 'fixing' his own bikes up..He was grilling me on several things, I was only to happy to spend time showing him a couple of things.

I'm surprised at the number of guys I meet who don't know how to even change a tire..or tighten a loose chain. They run to the LBS.
Learn to rely more on yourself and life will always be better..UMMM...unless of course you need an EMT or an ambulance.
Franco

 

[Bigcam59]

Another thing you may want to consider is switching from traditional spiral wound cable housing to SIS straight cut,no compression housing. It'll make the shifts a bunch cleaner, especially if you are using a bunch of it.

 

[franconuevo]

thanks for all the great suggestions...t.y. Bigcam.
I haven't had this bike out for a bit, but took it out to start lookin' at it a different way due to the suggestions I received
ya know it looks like the cassette teeth are toast....who knows where this one came from.
some are a bit chiseled looking, a lot are pointy, some are nubs and here's a closer up.

The middle rings, where I imagine one would run the most...just look beat..It IS a nice looking bike this Stalker and it feels good, everything else works fine...(which of course isn't saying much when you can't pedal it)

Think I'll swap out a new cassette , or freewheel...depending on what rims I find layin' around the parts pile. (waitaminit, I don't have a cassette removal tool, but I have a chisel and hammer)....so probably freewheel. See what happens

best to all
franco