Girvin Vector fork on a Worksman Newsboy frame?

[Urbanite]

Hey everyone... this is my first foray into bike building, and I've got quite a bit to learn. I just bought an old Girvin Vector fork, and I'd like to attach it to a Worksman Newsboy frame. I bought the fork on eBay: http://r.ebay.com/Z0dj8T (there are lots of excellent pictures in the listing) and it arrives next week. I do not have the frame yet. I figured I'd buy the complete bike from Worksman in July, swap in this fork, and use the stock wheel. I saw on another thread here http://www.ratrodbikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/show-us-your-worksman-bicycle.33482/ that there may be issues fitting non-OEM forks to the INB frame, even if the measurements appear to jibe at first sight. I'm hoping some experienced soul here has some notion of how to successfully combine the Girvin fork with the INB frame? Any insight on what I may encounter would be deeply appreciated! My goal is to have any extra bits ready (or other avenues of recourse if necessary) before I get the bike. Thank you!

 

[Bicycle808]

OK, your Girvin is a 1" threadless, and the Worksman fork is a 1" threaded, so things shan't be too difficult for you, really, but there are some pitfalls to be aware of.

If you were to ask this question on bikeforums.net or somesuch, they'd tell you to just go get a 1" threadless headset, but a standard 1" threadless headset is made with 30.2mm cups, which will be loose-as-a-goose in a Worksman headtube. The reason for this is b/c a Worksman headtube is, like, 32.7mm ID.

I've linked an ebay auction below for a 32.5mm cup 1" threadless headset, which will still be a little loose in a Worksman headtube, but don't fret, my pet. If it were me, I'd see how the stock Worksman cups fit with the bearings/cones of the new headset... First step would be to compare the caged retainer bearings of the stock headset with those of the new headset; if they're the same size/number/profile, you'll prolly be good to go. Do a test fit and see. Failing that, you can remove the stock cups, shim the new cups with some strips-o'-beercan, and run it that way. Only problem from here might come from the girvin's crown race seat. I don't have much experience with Girvins, so I don't know how their crown race is spec'd. Generally, 1" forks will have either a 26.4mm or 27.0mm crown race seat. The stock Worksman forks take a 27.0 (going back from present-day to the 80's); the crown race in the auction below are 27.0 as well. From the pics, I see that the Girvin might come with a crown race, but I can't quite make out if one of those rings next to the fork is the crown race. Regardless, 26.4mm crown races for loose bearings can be purchased a la carte, cheaply... YST offers them, for instance. If the crown race from the ebay headset is loose on the crown race seat, just get a cheap 26.4mm race and try that.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BICYCLE-BLA...MTB-BIKE-/390648046490?_trksid=p2054897.l4275

Other options:
-I've never tried it, but I understand it's possible to grind the threads out of the adjustable race on the stock headset to allow it to fit the 1" threadless fork. This makes me nervous, as there'd be no compression ring, and it seems unlikely that it'd fit precisely. Ghetto option that I'd avoid, but maybe you feel more adventurous?
-RRB member Migs has built some Worksmen (Worksmans?) with 1" threadless set-ups. He used standard road/mini headsets with the 30.2mm cups, as well as headset reducer shims. (Sized to reduse a 1.125" headtube to fit a 1"fork...) In one case, he milled the reducer down from 34.0mm to 32.7mm; in the other case, he just reamed the headtube from 32.7mm to 34.0mm to accommodate the reducer shim. Check out these threads for more info:
http://www.ratrodbikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/worksman-lieutenant.49936/
http://www.ratrodbikes.com/forum/in...-bmx-finally-finished-pictures-on-pg-6.68920/
Migs builds some awesome bikes and, just as important, he authors some great threads with excellent pictures, descriptions, tutorials, etc...

Keep at it; hopefully, I've offered some info/leads. You can do this, but it will likely require some creativity/kludge-work. Can't wait to see pics of an INB with a Girvin installed....

Good luck!

 

[Bicycle808]

Just curious.... do you plan on just changing the fork/stem/headset, or do you have more planned? If you're going to modify everything, it might be cheaper to buy a used frame from RRB member ind-chuckz and go from there. If you want to start from a new, stock, complete INB, check out industrialbikes.com because they will ship more quickly and more cheaply than if you order from Worksman direct.

 

[Urbanite]

Just curious.... do you plan on just changing the fork/stem/headset, or do you have more planned? If you're going to modify everything, it might be cheaper to buy a used frame from RRB member ind-chuckz and go from there. If you want to start from a new, stock, complete INB, check out industrialbikes.com because they will ship more quickly and more cheaply than if you order from Worksman direct.

Well... I was set for about a week or so to put a silver (or champagne, sigh) Crank Brothers Cobalt 2 wheelset on this sucker, but I'm going to motorize this bike, and I don't want to streeeetch the rear dropouts AND put myself another, eh, $500 in the hole without knowing I can get all of the relevant bits to play together properly without brute force and/or great expense. I've been told I may have issues with gear ratios and whatnot (although my own layman self does not understand how the additional hub width (yes?) could notably affect any of that). Barring those wheels, I'd love to put a set of wooden rims on this bike, but I can't seem to find any that are reinforced with metal that are still being made. I found an Italian company that, at least in 2011, were making not only gorgeous aluminum rims trimmed with wood, but several styles of matching aluminum-reinforced-wood handlebars to boot. I emailed them (albeit in English) but have yet to receive a response.

I Doooooo-OOOOO-ooooo want to beat all of the paint off of this bike, and clear powder coat it to seal it. Being that that alone can take a few weeks to turn around, and that it'd be sort of a shame to destroy a fresh paint job, I am mightily tempted, as you suggested, to just track down a frame and build it piece-by-piece as I am doing already. Hmmmm. Either way thank you for that link. I'd found that site a couple of weeks ago, but wasn't sure then if they were legit. I will get inquire with Chuckz, however. If I can move the needle NOW by cheaply buying the frame and getting it off to the powder coaters, I can save the big July investment for the other components, and get the Girvin properly mated to the frame in the meantime.

All of that said, wow!! Thanks so much for the big push in the right direction! I feel a lot better now. To be honest, a lot of the lingo you used is Greek to me, but the mystery that was making me a bit anxious has been stripped back. I didn't even know what a headset WAS (google!), let alone the fact that I needed one. I think I may actually enter this into the build off, either way I'll post some pics of what I have acquired for this just for fun.

 

[mikeeebikey]

[ post: 828522, member: 10899"]OK, your Girvin is a 1" threadless, and the Worksman fork is a 1" threaded, so things shan't be too difficult for you, really, but there are some pitfalls to be aware of.

If you were to ask this question on bikeforums.net or somesuch, they'd tell you to just go get a 1" threadless headset, but a standard 1" threadless headset is made with 30.2mm cups, which will be loose-as-a-goose in a Worksman headtube. The reason for this is b/c a Worksman headtube is, like, 32.7mm ID.

I've linked an ebay auction below for a 32.5mm cup 1" threadless headset, which will still be a little loose in a Worksman headtube, but don't fret, my pet. If it were me, I'd see how the stock Worksman cups fit with the bearings/cones of the new headset... First step would be to compare the caged retainer bearings of the stock headset with those of the new headset; if they're the same size/number/profile, you'll prolly be good to go. Do a test fit and see. Failing that, you can remove the stock cups, shim the new cups with some strips-o'-beercan, and run it that way. Only problem from here might come from the girvin's crown race seat. I don't have much experience with Girvins, so I don't know how their crown race is spec'd. Generally, 1" forks will have either a 26.4mm or 27.0mm crown race seat. The stock Worksman forks take a 27.0 (going back from present-day to the 80's); the crown race in the auction below are 27.0 as well. From the pics, I see that the Girvin might come with a crown race, but I can't quite make out if one of those rings next to the fork is the crown race. Regardless, 26.4mm crown races for loose bearings can be purchased a la carte, cheaply... YST offers them, for instance. If the crown race from the ebay headset is loose on the crown race seat, just get a cheap 26.4mm race and try that.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BICYCLE-BLA...MTB-BIKE-/390648046490?_trksid=p2054897.l4275

Other options:
-I've never tried it, but I understand it's possible to grind the threads out of the adjustable race on the stock headset to allow it to fit the 1" threadless fork. This makes me nervous, as there'd be no compression ring, and it seems unlikely that it'd fit precisely. Ghetto option that I'd avoid, but maybe you feel more adventurous?
-RRB member Migs has built some Worksmen (Worksmans?) with 1" threadless set-ups. He used standard road/mini headsets with the 30.2mm cups, as well as headset reducer shims. (Sized to reduse a 1.125" headtube to fit a 1"fork...) In one case, he milled the reducer down from 34.0mm to 32.7mm; in the other case, he just reamed the headtube from 32.7mm to 34.0mm to accommodate the reducer shim. Check out these threads for more info:
http://www.ratrodbikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/worksman-lieutenant.49936/
http://www.ratrodbikes.com/forum/in...-bmx-finally-finished-pictures-on-pg-6.68920/
Migs builds some awesome bikes and, just as important, he authors some great threads with excellent pictures, descriptions, tutorials, etc...

Keep at it; hopefully, I've offered some info/leads. You can do this, but it will likely require some creativity/kludge-work. Can't wait to see pics of an INB with a Girvin installed....

Good luck![/quote]
Nice posting! You did all the hard part!

 

[Bicycle808]

http://www.ratrodbikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/worksman-inb-frame-fork-for-sale.84267/
That one's sold, but he's got more.... Cheap, rusty, ugly, but straight. Typically, a lot of surface rust, but they come up smooth/solid with some
work w/ a wire wheel... Most powdercoaters will sandblast it for you, so...

If you're looking at a motor, look at this site: http://sportsmanflyer.com/
At the least, look at the rear sprocket adaptor. Best design I've seen.

I've never built a motorized bicycle, but I've looked into'm in the past. I'd suggest building a rolling bicycle first, and then easing yourself into strapping a motor on there.

Once you get that Girvin, if you got a any headset questions, I'm happy to help or just post queries here on the how-to forum.

Welcome to RRB.

 

[mikeeebikey]

I have built a few motorized, repaired a bunch!
Best way to go is a jack shaft, forward freewheel, and a good coaster brake hub.
They do make all the sprockets to fit 415 chain and they are pricey!
My brother, using the h.d. stuff with a Honda motor, got nearly 4 years from the chain, and related components. He did learn about speed/heat and grease life from me, so he did the rear bearings monthly.

 

[Urbanite]

http://www.ratrodbikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/worksman-inb-frame-fork-for-sale.84267/
That one's sold, but he's got more.... Cheap, rusty, ugly, but straight. Typically, a lot of surface rust, but they come up smooth/solid with some
work w/ a wire wheel... Most powdercoaters will sandblast it for you, so...

If you're looking at a motor, look at this site: http://sportsmanflyer.com/
At the least, look at the rear sprocket adaptor. Best design I've seen.

I've never built a motorized bicycle, but I've looked into'm in the past. I'd suggest building a rolling bicycle first, and then easing yourself into strapping a motor on there.

Once you get that Girvin, if you got a any headset questions, I'm happy to help or just post queries here on the how-to forum.

Welcome to RRB.

Thanks! I messaged Chuckz about a frame, $70 shipped feels like the way to go. The thought of buying a frame with some history to it is more exciting anyway. If the patina is suitable, I could see myself leaving it as-is, but we'll just have to see.

Sportsman Flyer is what put me on the Newsboy path to begin with to be honest. For a while I was set on buying his stretched frame, but it's hard to justify all of that weight and expense only to pair it to a cheap 50cc Chinese engine. It also again felt too much like a kit, which led me to the Girvin. I probably will end up getting the tank and the tool box (well, the seat post too) from him, although I'm hunting for something perhaps a little more economical and hopefully less common (or less obvious, as it were) in the meantime, although his Newsboy tank is quite beautiful. It's all gotten me thinking a lot about textiles, interestingly, but I digress.

Anyway, FedEx tells me the fork will be here Monday! Woohoo!!

 

[Urbanite]

I have built a few motorized, repaired a bunch!
Best way to go is a jack shaft, forward freewheel, and a good coaster brake hub.
They do make all the sprockets to fit 415 chain and they are pricey!
My brother, using the h.d. stuff with a Honda motor, got nearly 4 years from the chain, and related components. He did learn about speed/heat and grease life from me, so he did the rear bearings monthly.

Thanks for the advice! I figured any engine I bought would be mechanically complete as far as a jack shaft would go, but maybe I am misunderstanding you? I also figured, to keep the cost and complexity down (at least at first), I would just build a one-speed bike with with an engine. I've seen HD kits, and if I am not mistaken, they allow compatibility with multi-speed bikes, is that right? Is that why I would need the forward freewheel? Also, when you say "415 chain," and mention the sprocket, are you saying that I would need that no matter what, or only if I install a non-standard width hub at the rear?

 

[Bicycle808]

Thanks! I messaged Chuckz about a frame, $70 shipped feels like the way to go. The thought of buying a frame with some history to it is more exciting anyway. If the patina is suitable, I could see myself leaving it as-is, but we'll just have to see.

Sportsman Flyer is what put me on the Newsboy path to begin with to be honest. For a while I was set on buying his stretched frame, but it's hard to justify all of that weight and expense only to pair it to a cheap 50cc Chinese engine. It also again felt too much like a kit, which led me to the Girvin. I probably will end up getting the tank and the tool box (well, the seat post too) from him, although I'm hunting for something perhaps a little more economical and hopefully less common (or less obvious, as it were) in the meantime, although his Newsboy tank is quite beautiful. It's all gotten me thinking a lot about textiles, interestingly, but I digress.

Anyway, FedEx tells me the fork will be here Monday! Woohoo!!

Just remember that spoke-mounted sprockets, like the ones that come with the typical cheapie 50cc kits, will eventually tear your wheels apart. By bolting the sprocket to the hub, you avoid eventual torque-induced wheel failure.

 

[Urbanite]

...Newsboy frame ordered!!! I'm so freaking STOKED!

 

[kingfish254]

My Girvin is 1-1/8 threadless and I have it installed on a 38 Hawthorne that would have originally had a 1" threaded steer tube.

 

[Urbanite]

Just remember that spoke-mounted sprockets, like the ones that come with the typical cheapie 50cc kits, will eventually tear your wheels apart. By bolting the sprocket to the hub, you avoid eventual torque-induced wheel failure.

I figured a lot of stuff in the kits was garbage... including the engine for all I know! Ideally I would just buy the engine, and cobble together the rest of the parts I need. My own personal goal is to have this thing complete sometime in September. I figure that will give me more than enough time to source the best (or at least the most interesting) stuff I can find.

 

[Urbanite]

My Girvin is 1-1/8 threadless and I have it installed on a 38 Hawthorne that would have originally had a 1" threaded steer tube.

Your bike is awesome! It's ironic, because I assumed a 1⅛" was a no-go. Here it seems I may have had a somewhat easier time integrating that version with the Newsboy, ha!

 

[mikeeebikey]

Thanks for the advice! I figured any engine I bought would be mechanically complete as far as a jack shaft would go, but maybe I am misunderstanding you? I also figured, to keep the cost and complexity down (at least at first), I would just build a one-speed bike with with an engine. I've seen HD kits, and if I am not mistaken, they allow compatibility with multi-speed bikes, is that right? Is that why I would need the forward freewheel? Also, when you say "415 chain," and mention the sprocket, are you saying that I would need that no matter what, or only if I install a non-standard width hub at the rear?

The jack shaft takes the chain from the left side to the right side, then to the f.f., and to the back wheel. Yes, you can use gears.
The hub width will be an issue with either side drive.
Obviously with the f.f. system you use hand brakes.

 

[Urbanite]

The jack shaft takes the chain from the left side to the right side, then to the f.f., and to the back wheel. Yes, you can use gears.
The hub width will be an issue with either side drive.
Obviously with the f.f. system you use hand brakes.

Oh! Wow, that's crazy. Should I run it this way because it's more reliable? Or is it easier on the bike? I assume I would lose the ability to pedal the bike with the engine switched off, should I care?

 

[mikeeebikey]

No you don't lose pedaling until the clutch fails!
A track hub actually works the best, then freewheel.

 

[mikeeebikey]

Here is the kit:
http://www.bikeberry.com/motorized-bike-jackshaft-kit.html

Youtube has a ton of videos.
Reliability wise, this is the only way.. if it's to make a buck, show off, use the spoke destroyer set up! If it's for you, or family, spend the money!
My little brother had a skyhawk on an old schwinn, motor failed a month old. He bought a honda, got it together, started destroying wheels! His final set up included a heavy duty wheel because it was so fast.
Drum brake country minimum, disc is better!

 

[Urbanite]

Here is the kit:
http://www.bikeberry.com/motorized-bike-jackshaft-kit.html

Youtube has a ton of videos.
Reliability wise, this is the only way.. if it's to make a buck, show off, use the spoke destroyer set up! If it's for you, or family, spend the money!
My little brother had a skyhawk on an old schwinn, motor failed a month old. He bought a honda, got it together, started destroying wheels! His final set up included a heavy duty wheel because it was so fast.
Drum brake country minimum, disc is better!

Hmmmm, alright. Your suggestions are making me wonder if I should even bother with a 50cc engine at all, even if it defeats one of my aims for this project. What is your brother running? It seems more powerful than 50cc by the sound of it, although I don't have much of a point of reference.

 

[mikeeebikey]

It's a honda .49cc,
Runs better than the skyhawks.
I would concentrate on the bike first.
No one says you have to run a bike motor!