Klunker Build Frame Choice...I need your expertise!!

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The RRB bug has bitten HARD and I am in the market for a frame for a full on klunker build. I'll be cutting and welding and grinding so I'd like to start with a frame that meets certain criteria of mine.

1. Pre-war would be cool. I am very flexible on this because I'd like a:
2. Relatively common, inexpensive frame; I don't want to chop on a super rare piece.
3. Frame geometries similar to that of a modern mountain bike. Mostly I am concerned about the head tube angle. I will either be using a 100mm 26" fork or an 80mm 29" fork, so a little steeper head tube angle would probably be ideal as the longer forks will relax the angle quite a bit. That being said, I'll likely be changing the head tube itself to accommodate a 1-1/8" steerer tube so the angle can be altered.

So I guess the question is this: Do I search for a frame that meets my criteria or do I just find an inexpensive frame that I like and alter it to my personal specs? Discuss.
 
schwinnless said:
80's-90's schwinn heavy duti frame(the stright bar one).

Definitely the style I'd like to go with, but I'd really like to do something older. 80s doesn't really cut it for me.
 
1-If it's prewar and solid enough to actual klunk with, it'll likely be both expensive and kind of a shame to chop, imho. If it's a rotten hull, then it won't be a shame, but it wouldn't likely be trailworthy. At any rate, prewar schwinns seem to command a premium price, but anything with a double-top tube structure seems to be pretty dear.
2-common? inexpensive? As I said above, anything prewar, straight, and solid is not going to be easy to find, especially not for cheap.
3-Head angles are likely to be slack on most of the older Ballooner bikes that folks tend to gravitate towards for these builds. Changing the headtube on an old American-made bike is an exercise in pointlessness; the headtubes tend to be 32.5mm or greater ID. Depending on what frame you're using, you can buy a retro ryder headset (http://www.genuinebicycleproducts.com/parts.html) (sscroll down a lil more than halfway.) Or, you can use a wald (or similar) headset's cups with a cheap, caged bearing 1.125" threadless headset to make a hybrid headset. In either case, you'll save time and money over replacing the headtube, and then you won't need to feel bad about modifying a vintage frame, making resale more likely... (And, yeah, I know that a lot of ppl like to take on chop/weld projects, so they can brag/gloat, but you won't impress anyone who knows anything, as you won't need to do all of that to run a 1.125" headset, and you'll likely weaken the frame...)

Geo. Yeah, the modern mtb has it's origins in the classic balloon tire bikes, but in reality, they differ quite a bit insofar as they have very slack head angles, very long chainstays, and most have a 17 to 18.5" seat-tube, so if you tend to run a "medium" 26" hardtail, you're good... otherwise, not so much. Tend to have more BB drop, too. And, shorter toptubes. Maybe therein lies your chop project (ie, try to chop the cruiser and give it the same geo as an On-One Inbred, for example), but if i wanted something with semi-modern mtb geometry (or even just NORBA geometry), I'd buy a steel hardtail from the 90's. (I have a ca2000 Kona like that.) If I wanted to build a klunker (and I have, which I'm revamping, with another klunker build in the works...), I'd embrace the offroad cruiser vibes, with the iffy geo and all. FWIW, I actually enjoy riding a Worksman INB offroad; the geo works well for xc-style trails, if you're not in a hurry.

Aside from bragging rights, I don't see the need for a very old frame. Especially if you're going to run a suspension fork on it. (The suspension forks & 69er wheel layout will totally negate the ol-school vibe of a vintage frame anyway, but perhaps you're after the anachronistic appeal, which I sort of understand....) Especially if you're looking for something solid-yet-worthless to tinker with, chop, weld, etc on before hitting the trails for actual trail riding. Therefore, my suggestions are:
1- Worksman INB. These are dime-a-dozen, current production (but are very nearly identical to Worksmen from 60 years ago), overbuilt lugged frames,with the same twin top tubes as the DX/Excelsior Schwinns that are often considered the quintessential Klunker frame. Pros- will take a 1.125" threadless fork with a retro ryder or hybridized headset, they have all of the real-deal oldhead USA bikes, including track ends (rearward-facing drop-outs), american BB shell, overbuilt lugged construction... most ppl will have no idea that it's a current-production bike. RRB member "Ind-chuckz" often sells framesets on this site for $70 or so, shipped. The geo and ride characteristics work very well on my fairly flat S.Jersey trails; ymmv. Cons- The curved downtube doesn't scream "klunker" the way a straight one does. Flimsy 7/8" seatpost (Bendable, but still stronger than most true-vintage options.) The frame weighs more than my Mom, who is light for a mother, but quite heavy for a bicycle. Worksman seems to paint these with watercolor paint, so even a 2 year old frame will be loaded with surface rust (which may add to the faux-vintage factor); the tubes are very thick-walled, so they will tend to be solid under the surface.

2-late-model Schwinn Heavy Duti (mid-1980's to present) As someone else said, these are a good choice. Pros Geo is very MTBish; very similar to my 90's-lookin' Kona, but with longer stays and a slightly slacker headtube. Downtube is straight. Made from oversized tubing, so it's stiffer than the Worksman or any other frames you're likely to consider. Comes with a 1.125" headtube standard (although the stock fork is threaded). Comes with slightly wider (116mm) rear spacing, in case you wanna run gears. Has horizontal drop outs, american BB shell, and takes a 1" seatpost, which is basically the bmx standard, with a lot of options. Also, 1" is way stronger than the 7/8" on the Worksman or the 13/16" on Chicago Schwinns (even thinner on many other prewar bikes...) Ind-chuckz always seems to have these available for about $75 shipped. Cons: Only a total yutz will think it's an actual vintage frame. Sure, it has the twin top tubes and some other old-school vibes, but it's constructed of tig welded OS tubing. These are also pretty heavy, but lighter than a worksman, an electro-forged schwinn, or most other frames suitable for klunking.

If you really have your heart set on something truly old, your best bet is to look for something straight, solid, and in your price-range, and deal with whatever issues you need to solve to make it how ya want it. Having your heart set on a particular vintage frame in decent shape will probably be costly and may be time-consuming. If you can live with a newer frame, you'll find these are more easy to come by, and usually dirt cheap. Whatever you decide, I'd urge you to explore the headset strategy more thoroughly before you chop. You might also want to build and ride the frame as-is so you can decide if you really need to mod the geo, and if so, what direction you want to take with that. Also, rethink the suspension fork thing; good suspension forks will kill your budget, and lousy forks will kill your build. Rigid forks are cheap, strong, and the type of thing that the real Marin guys used to run.

Sorry to write a book; as you can see, I get pretty enthusiastic about these kinds of builds. The above is based on my own research and experiences, and assumes that you'll want to build a bike for actual trail-riding. If you just want to make a cool-looking faux-klunk for pub rides, I totally respect that, but my advice will be pretty useless for that.

Above all else, build whatcha want, how you want it, and have fun doing it.

-rob

supergoob said:
The RRB bug has bitten HARD and I am in the market for a frame for a full on klunker build. I'll be cutting and welding and grinding so I'd like to start with a frame that meets certain criteria of mine.

1. Pre-war would be cool. I am very flexible on this because I'd like a:
2. Relatively common, inexpensive frame; I don't want to chop on a super rare piece.
3. Frame geometries similar to that of a modern mountain bike. Mostly I am concerned about the head tube angle. I will either be using a 100mm 26" fork or an 80mm 29" fork, so a little steeper head tube angle would probably be ideal as the longer forks will relax the angle quite a bit. That being said, I'll likely be changing the head tube itself to accommodate a 1-1/8" steerer tube so the angle can be altered.

So I guess the question is this: Do I search for a frame that meets my criteria or do I just find an inexpensive frame that I like and alter it to my personal specs? Discuss.
 
Bicycle808 said:
1-If it's prewar and solid enough to actual klunk with, it'll likely be both expensive and kind of a shame to chop, imho. If it's a rotten hull, then it won't be a shame, but it wouldn't likely be trailworthy. At any rate, prewar schwinns seem to command a premium price, but anything with a double-top tube structure seems to be pretty dear.
2-common? inexpensive? As I said above, anything prewar, straight, and solid is not going to be easy to find, especially not for cheap.
3-Head angles are likely to be slack on most of the older Ballooner bikes that folks tend to gravitate towards for these builds. Changing the headtube on an old American-made bike is an exercise in pointlessness; the headtubes tend to be 32.5mm or greater ID. Depending on what frame you're using, you can buy a retro ryder headset (http://www.genuinebicycleproducts.com/parts.html) (sscroll down a lil more than halfway.) Or, you can use a wald (or similar) headset's cups with a cheap, caged bearing 1.125" threadless headset to make a hybrid headset. In either case, you'll save time and money over replacing the headtube, and then you won't need to feel bad about modifying a vintage frame, making resale more likely... (And, yeah, I know that a lot of ppl like to take on chop/weld projects, so they can brag/gloat, but you won't impress anyone who knows anything, as you won't need to do all of that to run a 1.125" headset, and you'll likely weaken the frame...)

Geo. Yeah, the modern mtb has it's origins in the classic balloon tire bikes, but in reality, they differ quite a bit insofar as they have very slack head angles, very long chainstays, and most have a 17 to 18.5" seat-tube, so if you tend to run a "medium" 26" hardtail, you're good... otherwise, not so much. Tend to have more BB drop, too. And, shorter toptubes. Maybe therein lies your chop project (ie, try to chop the cruiser and give it the same geo as an On-One Inbred, for example), but if i wanted something with semi-modern mtb geometry (or even just NORBA geometry), I'd buy a steel hardtail from the 90's. (I have a ca2000 Kona like that.) If I wanted to build a klunker (and I have, which I'm revamping, with another klunker build in the works...), I'd embrace the offroad cruiser vibes, with the iffy geo and all. FWIW, I actually enjoy riding a Worksman INB offroad; the geo works well for xc-style trails, if you're not in a hurry.

Aside from bragging rights, I don't see the need for a very old frame. Especially if you're going to run a suspension fork on it. (The suspension forks & 69er wheel layout will totally negate the ol-school vibe of a vintage frame anyway, but perhaps you're after the anachronistic appeal, which I sort of understand....) Especially if you're looking for something solid-yet-worthless to tinker with, chop, weld, etc on before hitting the trails for actual trail riding. Therefore, my suggestions are:
1- Worksman INB. These are dime-a-dozen, current production (but are very nearly identical to Worksmen from 60 years ago), overbuilt lugged frames,with the same twin top tubes as the DX/Excelsior Schwinns that are often considered the quintessential Klunker frame. Pros- will take a 1.125" threadless fork with a retro ryder or hybridized headset, they have all of the real-deal oldhead USA bikes, including track ends (rearward-facing drop-outs), american BB shell, overbuilt lugged construction... most ppl will have no idea that it's a current-production bike. RRB member "Ind-chuckz" often sells framesets on this site for $70 or so, shipped. The geo and ride characteristics work very well on my fairly flat S.Jersey trails; ymmv. Cons- The curved downtube doesn't scream "klunker" the way a straight one does. Flimsy 7/8" seatpost (Bendable, but still stronger than most true-vintage options.) The frame weighs more than my Mom, who is light for a mother, but quite heavy for a bicycle. Worksman seems to paint these with watercolor paint, so even a 2 year old frame will be loaded with surface rust (which may add to the faux-vintage factor); the tubes are very thick-walled, so they will tend to be solid under the surface.

2-late-model Schwinn Heavy Duti (mid-1980's to present) As someone else said, these are a good choice. Pros Geo is very MTBish; very similar to my 90's-lookin' Kona, but with longer stays and a slightly slacker headtube. Downtube is straight. Made from oversized tubing, so it's stiffer than the Worksman or any other frames you're likely to consider. Comes with a 1.125" headtube standard (although the stock fork is threaded). Comes with slightly wider (116mm) rear spacing, in case you wanna run gears. Has horizontal drop outs, american BB shell, and takes a 1" seatpost, which is basically the bmx standard, with a lot of options. Also, 1" is way stronger than the 7/8" on the Worksman or the 13/16" on Chicago Schwinns (even thinner on many other prewar bikes...) Ind-chuckz always seems to have these available for about $75 shipped. Cons: Only a total yutz will think it's an actual vintage frame. Sure, it has the twin top tubes and some other old-school vibes, but it's constructed of tig welded OS tubing. These are also pretty heavy, but lighter than a worksman, an electro-forged schwinn, or most other frames suitable for klunking.

If you really have your heart set on something truly old, your best bet is to look for something straight, solid, and in your price-range, and deal with whatever issues you need to solve to make it how ya want it. Having your heart set on a particular vintage frame in decent shape will probably be costly and may be time-consuming. If you can live with a newer frame, you'll find these are more easy to come by, and usually dirt cheap. Whatever you decide, I'd urge you to explore the headset strategy more thoroughly before you chop. You might also want to build and ride the frame as-is so you can decide if you really need to mod the geo, and if so, what direction you want to take with that. Also, rethink the suspension fork thing; good suspension forks will kill your budget, and lousy forks will kill your build. Rigid forks are cheap, strong, and the type of thing that the real Marin guys used to run.

Sorry to write a book; as you can see, I get pretty enthusiastic about these kinds of builds. The above is based on my own research and experiences, and assumes that you'll want to build a bike for actual trail-riding. If you just want to make a cool-looking faux-klunk for pub rides, I totally respect that, but my advice will be pretty useless for that.

Above all else, build whatcha want, how you want it, and have fun doing it.

-rob

This guy! This is exactly the reply I was looking for. Bragging rights is ALL this build is about. I have several modern high end mountain bikes and race a little XC and alot of DH/Enduro/Super D races. Obviously I'm not the fastest XC rider, so I want to build up a usable, well performing klunker just so I can be "that guy" at the trail. Know what I mean? That being said, I know the Heavy Duti frame would be a great choice but I'm still not sold on a frame as recent as the 80s. The Worksman was something I was considering from the get-go, as this seems to be a popular choice. Once again, unless I find an old one, its still a new(ish) frame and kind of defeats my purpose. I'd know it was new(ish), even if others didn't.

As far as forks go, I've got a selection here and can definitely make something work. I've got a super lightweight Marzocchi air 80mm v-brake fork and a couple of Manitou 100mm disc forks. I'm not above rigid, as I've got a rigid steel Marin SS 29er, but if its going to weight as much as my enduro bike then I'd really like for it to at least be comfortable and cushy. Actually the thought has crossed my mind of gutting my Marin and doing a klunker 29er, but that likely won't happen on my first klunker build.

As far as that headset goes...I had no idea such an animal existed! Perfect! Thanks for that lead.

Thanks for all the help, I'm definitely all ears if you have any more advice!
 
I guess I dont understand why you would need to cut it up?

I can see welding on a Derailer hanger, and some Canti-mounts, but thats about it.

So your going for bragging rights, but building a modern version? I guess to me the ultimate bragging rights would be a prewar Schwinn Excelsior done up with proper period Klunker bits. Pretty much a re-creation of what the original Klunkers were.

If you go that route... be prepared to spend some $$$ the word is out and OG Klunker bits are pricy!

I didnt want to modify a pre-war frame so I am building a period correct Klunker using a 1962 Schwinn Traveler frame. Something that the dorky kid probably built back in the late 70's cause all the kool kids snatched up the Excelsior frames, lol :lol:

I am using... Araya wheelset, Correct year dated Suntour derailers and thumb shifters, TA crankset, Ashtabula stem, Dia-Comp Canti brakes and NOS levers, Brooks saddle, Solid aluminum seatpost, etc.

Pretty much copied the parts list from http://www.clunkers.net

Have fun and dont forget to show us some pics!
 
Ratfink has got it right; clunkers.net is a great source of info, as is Billy Savage's excellent moving picture, "Klunkerz".

I totally get the bragging rights thing. I tend to lean the opposite way; I feel guilty modding cool vintage schtuff, but I feel pretty certain that I'm in the minority here. Some thoughts to consider, now that this has come to light:
-Instead of just buying whichever true-vintage frame first comes available, you can hold out for a nice prewar Excelsior or similar frame, and build a Worksman in the meantime. Aside from the 7/8" post vs the 13/16" one a Schwinn takes, the build requirements are identical. Same rear spacing, same headtube ID, almost the exact same headtube dimensions in general, same BB shell, almost everything is the same, in terms of build requirements. This'd save you a bit on your budget (altho it would appear that budget isn't a concern), but it will also buy you time to hunt down the "dream frame". Worksman frames are super cheap and available.
- I understand that the frame will be heavy regardless, but I've ridden front-squish singlespeeds. The bouncing is unbearable when you're out-of-saddle, and on a 40lb+ SS, you'll be out of the saddle A LOT. OTOH, if you're building a "hybrid", with derailer gears, that will be slightly less of a concern. Also, if you're going for authentic appearances, a rigid fork will more adequately look the part. (As would a quill stem, but that's another discussion entirely.)
-While we're on the topic of maximum "that guy" cache, I agree with RatFink that you'd get the most trailside-jealousy appeal by using the same parts as the Marin guys used in the 70s. Barring that, using applicable new-production stuff would have a similar effect, but only if you used top-shelf (or as close as you can get to top-shelf) components that fit.
-Ratfink brings up frame mods. I've read some online horror stories about canti-posts being added and braking forces wreaking havoc on seatstays; haven't seen it myself. I ran drums front/rear with dia-compe bmx levers on my Worksman, and enjoyed the results. Derailer hangers being welded on is cool, if you're running derailers, but I think SS is more appropriate on a klunk.

As far as the Retro Ryder headset, I haven't pulled the trigger on one myself, but I'm gonna. Dude from GBP posts here on Ratrod under the handle Rev106. He's a solid dude; I've been wanting to pull the trigger on his Article One three-bar frame....
(None in stock, last I checked.)

Whatever you do, you are now pretty much obligated to post pics. :mrgreen:
 
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Here's a trailside shot of my Worksman; right now, it's missing cranks, post,and saddle. Waiting for some parts and new tires; it's about to become more of a strandie-type of build. I have a Heavy Duti that I might make a neo-klunk out of, but I might just hold out for a Genuine. All of the red iSH and some other parts got pulled for my True Torch, which is a fun bike in its own right, even if Johnny True Torch is an inept hack, and a borderline thief. But that's for a different thread, in't?
 
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