What would you buy? and how much would you pay for it?

[Craiggo]

there should be a new line of futuristic bikes. I think the murray bikes like space liner, flight liner... ect. would be a good inspiration those might sell quite well. there should also be a good muscle bike back on the line. the new stingrays are not even close.

 

[ozzmonaut]

I myself feel that frame quality is only going to be an issue with hard-ridden bikes like racing and mountain bikes. I would never jump on a walmart mtn bike and go bombing rocky trails. However, I've never had a cheap single-speed huffy explode while I was riding it. Most issues with cheap bikes are in the components. I look at these cheap bikes and the welds look fine, the bike feels sturdy and okay weight-wise. My friend had a mongoose mtn bike from walmart. The derailleur broke while I was riding. I threw the bike down a long steep hill. When I retrieved it, all was well except for the derailleur. Real issues begin when you have cheap components which may also be improperly assembled by some minimum-wage department store employee looking for the extra hours. I can't really say what I would be looking for in a new bike, because I have never looked for a new bike or been able to afford one. But I would think that in order to hold up in the current market, you would have to be extremely aggressive with your marketing while still staying within what the consumer base would believe to be affordable. First you would need to offer differing product lines between the $200-$450 range . Additionally you would likely need to send product samples to companies and magazines that could post printed and online product reviews. You couldn't rely on the first few customers to get you the word of mouth that you need.

 

[Uncle Stretch]

Been here for a while and watched lots of folks join, and think there is lots of money to be made here. If they can just figure out how. Then the dream begins . Maybe I could build custom frames or supply a part that nobody makes and I'm going to make a killing. You want to know what kinda of a bike someone would want to buy that you could ramp up in production and make money with. They want a rusty old junk frame for $5 that they can put way too much work into , and have it look like its worth a $1000. Look at what is on here. There are very few high dollar bikes. The majority of them are old 30's and 40's frames . I think Steve picked Rat Rod Bikes because he was smart enough to know....High Dollar Made in the USA wouldn't work as a web site. :wink:

 

[expjawa]

No, I think you're missing the point of the inquiry, Uncle Stretch. He isn't asking about how to build mass-produced rat rod bikes. He isn't asking how to get the look and feel of $5 rusty frame that someone put a lot of effort into. Rather, he is assuming that as bike enthusiasts, a fair population of this site would cross over into other areas of biking. I, for one, also play at mountain biking, road riding, etc. Yes, I also like working on old bikes, but that's beside the point here.

So, from that point of view, as a new bike customer, what sort of bikes does a typical bicycle enthusiast want to buy? What sort of product would they look for in a commercially-produced new bicycle? He's only asking here because we're a group of folks dedicated to biking, and probably have broad interests. He could just as easily post the same question at any number of other bike sites. Maybe he has.

And regarding making a fortune, I doubt he expects to just tool up a bike company and have the money roll in. I doubt anyone thinks its that easy. Maybe there's money to made there, after all, that is the bottom line in business. But I rather think that he's trying to address an unanswered need in the marketplace (or at least a perceived one).

 

[Rat Rod]

But I rather think that he's trying to address an unanswered need in the marketplace (or at least a perceived one).

Yeah, and that is the question...does prodcution origin really mean anything to consumers these days?

Another point to consider is that not all bikes from China are crap these days. The big name manufacturers like Trek, Electra, Felt and the others manage to produce a fairly decent product at a reasonable price.

 

[expjawa]

That is the exact question that needs to be answered. The truth is, I don't think a lot of people look beyond price. They demand cheap, buy cheap, and sometimes complain about Chinese quality when it breaks. But maybe that's not the segment of the buying population you target.

And yes, Chinese manufacturers can produce quality products. But like any other manufacturer, they charge more money for them. Most companies farm work to China to get it as cheap as possible, so they aren't spec-ing out the quality parts. Case in point - Ford has got themselves into a bit of issue with the new Mustang transmissions for this reason. They demanded that Getrag, the transmission supplier, have the gearboxes built in China to get them as low of a price as possible. Now they have product in the field that is malfunctioning. But if quality is specified, they can produce it.

I think what the biggest driver of cost in producing a new bicycle is going to come from what level of components are used on the bike, like someone else said. The frames ought to be relatively cheap once tooled up, or at least only a fraction of the total price. Assembly labor will be relatively small, since a large chunk of final assembly occurs at the LBS. The balance of the cost comes in all of the parts that you buy from 2nd tier suppliers.

 

[Uncle Stretch]

No, I think you're missing the point of the inquiry, Uncle Stretch.

Really didn't miss the point. I fully understood what he is asking. Several problems came to mind. If a person here has an interest in ,say a road bike or a Mountain bike , they get the best frame they can find that is tested for what they want to do and build their own. I know some of the members buy expensive new bikes just because they can.
If his expectations aren't to make money, then he would be going to a lot of trouble , just to have his hand in the business.
Most parts come from China. If you buy the better grade you will go to Taiwan and then top of the line Japan. Then you wind up building an expensive bike in the US with foreign parts.
Asking people here what kind of bike they would want and what price they would want to pay , is like the reality check when you want to sell something here for $10 shipped and they want to know if you will take $7 shipped. I'm not knocking anybody for wanting a deal , but the whole idea of this site is to build a bike for nothing, and have it look so good that everybody is envious.
Want to make some money...invent a really cool bike springer fork , or a shifter that works with any hub by changing the indexer and everybody will buy one.
I wish him well because dreams are realized and sometimes you make lots of money too.

 

[expjawa]

Well, no, I'm not sure I agree. You make the assumption that someone on this will only build up their own bike, regardless of the type. I think that's too narrow of an assumption. Maybe you would, fine. But in my case, I like tearing down and tinkering with bikes as much as the next guy. But I have enough restoration and build projects with old bikes that I'd rather spend the time I have available working on them rather than waste it building a mainstream bike or a mountain bike or whatever I need to be used a lot, reliably.

Granted, there's always some servicing to be done, but I don't want to spend unnecessary time monkeying around with it when I can be building up another old bike. Yet, I still need a mainstream bike for the bulk of my riding, because believe it or not, I actually want to be spending time out riding. And I'm not likely to put 100s of miles each season on an old Schwinn rat rod.

For a "daily rider", I want something that's turn-key, reliable and relatively low maintainence. A good, factory-built bike offers that. It's like having a Camry for commuting and hot rod or muscle car for weekend fun. I'm sure I'm not the only member of this site that thinks that way, and it's to that customer that Dave is inquiring.

 

[TornadoDave2]

OK.... the questions is NOT whether or not I can build a bike here in this country and make money with it.... OR if the American public cares where a bike is built. I've got mountains of research telling me those answers. In the last three years, the animosity bewteen American consumers and Chinese manufacturers has increased exponentially, and in all except the lowest end markets will continue to increase. It may not be a huge factor in everyone's mind right now, but it will be.

As far as manufacturing goes..... I've got most of those bases covered, and am working out the particulars with frame makers, wheel builders and so forth. We can't go with 100% American components, since some parts simply are not made here, but we CAN achieve a high enough percentage to put "Made in America" on the bikes.

The QUESTION is what sort of bike would the folks here at RatRod Bikes want to see in the marketplace.... that's all I'm asking.

 

[ratdaddy]

Excellent review of the book Cheap: The High Cost of Discount Culture. Explains exactly what we have been talking about. The dearth of mid-price quality goods because of our reliance on "discount" crap that we think we can't live without. Here is a quote:

Cheapness, argues Shell, has ruined just about everything. Main streets, with knowledgeable clerks and friendly service, have been decimated by discount stores like Wal-Mart staffed with ignorant employees who don't give a damn. Customer service has all but vanished (A sign on the entrance of IKEA stores reads, "No One Will Bother You"). Factory outlets have become the "fastest growing segment of not only the retail industry but also the travel industry." Jobs were lost when manufacturers moved their factories overseas and used cheap labor to produce mountains of cheap junk. Products now come in two categories: stratospherically priced luxury objects or slipshod discount crap, with few mid-priced, well-crafted objects available, because craftsmanship can't compete in the mass market. (As Roger Price, author of The Great Roob Revolution said "If everybody doesn't want it, nobody gets it.")

http://boingboing.net/2009/08/13/cheap- ... -cost.html

I can't afford the "luxury" handbuilt American-made bikes (as much as I totally desire one), and I don't want a discount store bike either. I would love a mid-priced bike with quality components, and I would actually prefer American made if it were at all possible. But the American financial/manufacturing system would have to change for that to ever happen. Maybe it could happen if folks like Dave started making this a reality and people (business/media) took notice and championed American manufacturing and American pride in quality stuff.

Go for it Dave, build those bikes and I'll buy them. And I'll tell everyone I know who made it and how awesome it is. And I'll encourage them to buy from you instead of Wal-mart/Target/KMart and who knows...people are tired of junk, maybe a mini revolution will happen. Maybe there are other people just like you willing to change the way business in America is done and we might return to a more honest way of doing things. Or maybe I'm naive. I'm okay with that.

 

[TornadoDave2]

Thanks RatDaddy.... I'm going to take you up on your offer.

About the current status of the project:

Worksman has been totally unresponsive in giving me quotes for framesets. I guess they aren't interested in even discussing the idea. That's OK however, since I've got another American builder who is interested.

I'm talking to several wheel builders who can build my wheels.... without using Chinese parts, AND I may be able to offer American made hubs. We'll see.

Right now, I'm researching components. There's a lot more out there than I realized. I'll keep you posted about how that research is going.

 

[Rat Rod]

Right now this is a bike that I'd like to have, but it's a bit beyond what I'd like to spend...

http://www.rei.com/product/808767/novara-eta-bike-2011

 

[CCR]

ive heard that a product need only have 60% of its cost in a country to be made "there" ... for example, order a bunch of bikes from twaiwan for $100 ... spend $120 to paint it in the states ... you can call it "made in the usa". Anybody know any better ?

 

[expjawa]

ive heard that a product need only have 60% of its cost in a country to be made "there" ... for example, order a bunch of bikes from twaiwan for $100 ... spend $120 to paint it in the states ... you can call it "made in the usa". Anybody know any better ?

Well, when it comes to automobiles, the feds have guidelines that determine a vehicle's origin. It's right there on the window sticker - you get the % of US-made content, and the location of the assembly plant. Where it gets bogged down, at least amongst consumers, is which is more American: the Honda assembled in OH with largely foreign content or the Ford built in Mexico with mostly US-derived content? At the end of the day, I look at where the bulk of the profits go to answer that question.

To follow Rat Rod's example, here are a couple of the bikes I'm looking at:
http://www.konaworld.com/asphalt_commut ... t=dew_plus
http://www.diamondback.com/bikes/perfor ... ight-2-11/
http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/bikes/ro ... x/7_3_fx/#
http://jamisbikes.com/usa/thebikes/stre ... sport.html

 

[xddorox]

I want a Bassman cruiser, that's what I want. Make it possible to only buy the frame too, that would make me happy.