Okay, I'll bite...LOL. How do I date the frame on them? I will make the Hawthorne a summer project. After dating the frame is there books I can buy out there that show me what original parts I need to find? Maybe I will trade the other off for parts.
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- Thread starter Budd
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And that's when the fun begins. Both will have serial numbers, and somebody says 1st is a early 40's Huffman built Hawthorne, I don't know where it's at but spect under the crank bracket.
The next is a Schwinn can be sure because of the welded kick stand bracket, that should date it post war, with unusual badge while Schwinn was still letting others brands their bikes, serial number in same place..
There are threads here and else where with topics of manufacture photos and dating.
The Schwinn may be tricky so threads and topics may be needed otherwise, here's a link for 1948 and up Schwinn; http://www.angelfire.com/rant/allday101/SchwinnCodes2.html the files below then got burned in fire, so threads and topics are key to learning.
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Thanks for the info Jeff but now I'm confused. I went out and wire brushed under both crank brackets and could find no numbers. The Schwinn's crank case looks like it's cast? and no signs of the tubes being welded in place, like it was cast as a single unit.
No numbers on the Hawthorne either. Should I be looking elsewhere? I did find red paint on both.
Schwinn
Hawthorne
No numbers on the Hawthorne either. Should I be looking elsewhere? I did find red paint on both.
Schwinn
Hawthorne
The bottom bracket and steer head on the Schwinn are forged units joined a little ways up the tube. Check the left side rear where the axle is attached for a number. May be there on the other as well, it's a common # location.
Humm and ditto what deorman said. however I'm expecting that Schwinn to be on the bottom bracket, it could be newer than appears and hence would be on the drop out mount for rear wheel, opposite side of sprocket/chain ring. Perhaps a 54 frame, as i'm not sure on that too but Schwinn may have used that sweatheart skiptooth sprocket up till then . . Can't recall the cut off when placed under bottom bracket , 1954 or so? It may also be quite a bit older. from what I understand it was not until post war WWII Schwinn added the welded kick stand bracket. then there's the obscure 1942-46 things, war time frames which increases the amount of lucky dollars ya hit. lol as I am not certain just exactly when Schwinn added that bracket, it could be another lucky bucks option if a 41 and lower.
It may be, just plain earning those lucky bucks by searching this site and yet, I hesitate to reference the other site, which has a massive following fer Schwinn's; 'The Cabe' due to site wars, lol.. http://thecabe.com/vbulletin/forum.php regardless, both sites have an abundance of info published within them and plenty who are always more than happy to help ya. . I sugest ya hunt the info down to nail dates and periods on both those frames and ignore the site war troll games. [grin]
The joints by Schwinn could be brazed if early about up too 1950 or so, and later, not sure of exact time, 53-4 or so, Schwinn created and ingenious system to electro weld em and mimic the brazed look. That unique system is stronger than most all other bikes and became their trade mark identity for Schwinn until they stopped manufacturing em in USA, about 1984-5. The brazed look would have joints about 3/4" away from where you'd expect it because, the smooth round connections are pre-formed.
Your 1st photo indicates a rough brazed connection of rear dropout bar and bottom bracket . that's likely the original color of paint; red, and when there's that, those numbers are on the bike, in one of the 2 places, BB or drop-out. albeit if ya can't find it on rear drop-out, don't be grinding on it, light sanding might help. when ya get the numbers, keep in mind, some years may be duplicated or seem the same in 2 different years, so refine if confusing because I've found most times while looks like same numbers the actual sets are different and can nail em if right.
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The rear dropout is the hooked parts where the axle of the rear wheel would bolt on and the "bb" stands for bottom bracket which is the picture right above this the circular part of the frame that the crank rides in
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Yes, but at some point in time, post war or slightly earlier is when they began to electro forge the frame, pre-war, like most other heavy bikes built then were brazed, and can be identified as brazed for the smooth joints.
Budd, it's not likely that the serial numbers are not there, and odds of none on two completely different frames are too slim.
I don't know where to look on the Hawthorn but spect it's under the BB, and Schwinn's, if it's not on the mid to upper section of the rear drop-out (place where wheel is bolted on , see photo below) are usually dead on center of bottom of BB. 1st is a letter followed with a set of 5 numbers.
I checked : 1948 through 52 are under the BB and 52-69 on left rear drop-out. before 48 is also on the BB. should also be letter followed with set of 5 numbers, but may have a tricky set as well. . (see below photo of one that's thought to be 1947)
And because that Schwinn has a skip-tooth sprocket, (wider distance than today's chain-ring teeth) very good odds that bike is pre-1948. maybe 1945 too 1947. While the Hawthorn with skip tooth could be pre-war or post war up too 1954-ish
Schwinn: 1952-1969 rear drop-out (note: during the 50's many other bike companies put numbers here too)
Schwinn 1947 bottom bracket, (BB) (note: that strange ridge/seam is Schwinn only, and most other pre- 1950 bikes have serial numbers here too, albeit some can have them here into 1955-ish)
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,,Yes, I Figured that, you're catching on. However checking the crank is a estimate because, anybody can change it, and often did. It's used in dating as an assistance measure to help confirm what serial number that's on the frame which may not be listed or discovered yet. I'd open to see yes, but I'd also be hitting the BB with a light sanding, may have been ground off which is not nice, but grind serial number cheats, as in stolen bikes, are usually not smart enough to erase everything. ya got some pretty heavy rust there, if ya acid etched it as example,, whatever is left may wash off verses gentle sanding could expose it. can be sure because of the condition of the seam which would otherwise be a clean triangular shape, reference it in that black 47 BB how clean and straight edges are. . see that nice, heavy, deep stamping on the 47 BB, use as example of how deep yours will be too. would otherwise, be very thin BB and with that rust like that had it been ground off, should have a hole by now. tap on the BB where serial numbers are, if not thin sounding, they're there.
and odds of two bikes without serials? bery bery slim.. might be under the rust too.
and odds of two bikes without serials? bery bery slim.. might be under the rust too.
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Now I'm obsessed with dating these things!! First I pulled the crank out of the Hawthorne and the only thing I found on it was A8.
Next I went to work on the drop out with a small wire brush, down to the paint...no number.
Then the BB, same thing, don't to paint but no number. I do see what appears to be a old weld but not sure on that.
Next I went to work on the drop out with a small wire brush, down to the paint...no number.
Then the BB, same thing, don't to paint but no number. I do see what appears to be a old weld but not sure on that.
Next I pulled the crank set on the Schwinn, on one side it reads AS&CO, on other side it is either 9620-A or 9G20-A.
Then onto the drop out, down to the paint. Can even make out old scratch's from the locking nut.
Then back to the BB, to the paint.
Then onto the drop out, down to the paint. Can even make out old scratch's from the locking nut.
Then back to the BB, to the paint.
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The 9620-A crank doesn't appear to be too uncommon and a quick search places the age of the bike as right around post-war. Don't know what to tell you about the missing serial--it should be there...on the bottom bracket.
