BUDNITZ BICYCLES
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The Renaissance Man
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O.K., I'll jump in on this also.
First, from looking at the photos, I like the design of these frames. There's nothing ground breaking or radical, just nice clean, simple bikes. A modern take on classic lines, which I like.
Most everyone seems to be critical of the price for these bikes, but I have the opposite opinion about it. While I personally could never justify spending that much money for a bike, I recognize that I'm not in their target market. I'm assuming that they are actually reaching people who are willing to purchase their products at that price level and I respect that. We can debate endlessly about the worth of something or the motives (or sanity) of the consumers who buy them, but for me that's not the point. For me the impressive thing is that someone actually produced something that they believe in and are bold enough go for it in an economy that is very hard on entrepreneurs. Ultimately the market will dictate the appeal of their creations and whether or not the price is acceptable. For the rest of us, it's back to the garage and build our own creations at the level that each of us are capable of.
First, from looking at the photos, I like the design of these frames. There's nothing ground breaking or radical, just nice clean, simple bikes. A modern take on classic lines, which I like.
Most everyone seems to be critical of the price for these bikes, but I have the opposite opinion about it. While I personally could never justify spending that much money for a bike, I recognize that I'm not in their target market. I'm assuming that they are actually reaching people who are willing to purchase their products at that price level and I respect that. We can debate endlessly about the worth of something or the motives (or sanity) of the consumers who buy them, but for me that's not the point. For me the impressive thing is that someone actually produced something that they believe in and are bold enough go for it in an economy that is very hard on entrepreneurs. Ultimately the market will dictate the appeal of their creations and whether or not the price is acceptable. For the rest of us, it's back to the garage and build our own creations at the level that each of us are capable of.
Fixed it for you.
I can appreciate expensive bikes as much as anyone; i just feel like, at any price point, the customer should get what s/he pays for. I think the Budnitz bikes represent a poor value, not b/c they are expensive, but b/c they are severely overpriced for what they are.
The Renaissance Man
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Fixed it for you.
I can appreciate expensive bikes as much as anyone; i just feel like, at any price point, the customer should get what s/he pays for. I think the Budnitz bikes represent a poor value, not b/c they are expensive, but b/c they are severely overpriced for what they are.
As long as they are not misrepresenting how or where the manufacturing is done, it's still fair game. There's a Huge Mercedes plant not far from here in Alabama that's turning out endless German based vehicles made in the USA. That being said, it's still up to the consumers to decide product values. Don't take me wrong, I agree with you that it's not an acceptable price for me, but neither are Nike Air Jordans and people are killing each other for those!
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Rat Rod
Owner & Founder
It would be interesting to know what the true cost of one of these bikes would be.
If you had to build one of these bikes on your own and had the capability to duplicate it exactly.
Surely someone here is capable of getting close to estimating what it would run.
If you had to build one of these bikes on your own and had the capability to duplicate it exactly.
Surely someone here is capable of getting close to estimating what it would run.
I basically agree with you, but...from the Budnitz site:
"Paul Budnitz began creating titanium bicycles for his own use in 2002. Almost immediately people began stopping him on the street to ask where they could buy a bicycle just like the one he was riding.Our company was founded in 2010 with the mission of offering top-end bicycles for daily use. We are committed to only make products that look beautiful, function to perfection, and are designed to last a lifetime."
Yeah, Budnitz "created" a bike for his own use in 2002, by ordering a custom from Black Sheep. When he wanted to mass produce bikes, he asked Black Sheep for some more prototypes, so he could send those to China for cloning purposes. Dude from Black Sheep declined, and early Budnitz bikes were apparently Lynskey-built, in TN. (Seems like Lynskey has cornered the market for contract-built Ti bikes in the USA; most everyone who needs production frames with their own label on'm seems to turn to Lynskey-- or China-- for the goods. And that's danged impressive. I guess, right after they sold Litespeed, the Lynskeys got all their ducks in a row to go HARD once that non-compete clause ran out...) Nowadays, it seems unclear where Budnitz bikes are being made. Internet rumors suggest the Far East, Budnitz sympathizers suggest Chattanooga, but the Budnitz site doesn't offer any clues. Draw whatever conclusions you like, but if i were proud of something, i wouldn't keep it a secret too long...
Yes, that would be interesting. I'd also be interested to know what they're costing Budnitz. No playa-hatin' points on anyone for making money, but at those prices, there's a lot of margin baked in--- especially if he can take a grand off for Black Friday...
Incidentally, at the PHila Bike Expo, a speaker explained that Ti bikes may go the way of the dodo bird, as the material grows ever more scarce, and aerospace firms keep buying the stuff up as fast as it can become available. At the very least, we can expect the prices to grow rapidly, and the benefits of a frame made from Ti over cheaper materials like steel, aluminum, and CF won't be able to overcome a very large price gap.
The Renaissance Man
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I have to admit that I have not looked into this company, their products, history or ethics. I've have never even heard of them until seeing this thread. My comments are in regards to the free market and how it relates to pricing.
You have obviously looked deeper into it and have consequently formed an opinion that would keep you from ever spending a dime with them. That is what people should do if they're interested enough. This illustrates my point exactly. If everyone shared your opinion of the company and their bikes value, they would cease to exist in the market. Conversely, if there are enough people willing to support them, then more power to them.
You have obviously looked deeper into it and have consequently formed an opinion that would keep you from ever spending a dime with them. That is what people should do if they're interested enough. This illustrates my point exactly. If everyone shared your opinion of the company and their bikes value, they would cease to exist in the market. Conversely, if there are enough people willing to support them, then more power to them.
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I used to own a Blacksheep until some scumbag ripped off my garage (and its was taken away still locked to anther bike). Budnitz ripped off James from Blacksheep's designs, plain and simple.
The Blacksheep was a thing of beauty and worth every penny I invested. One day it will come back to me.
We know already....you don't like them.
Wha...? Whatever do you mean? I think Giant Simple Ones are great bikes for the price!
You gotta admit, there's a resemblance there.....
So much so that RRB member Machine Age Victim is building one up as a Buddnitz tribute...
http://www.ratrodbikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-simple-plan-aka-the-poor-mans-budnitz.90096/
Which is cool, b/c that particular Buddnitz is a tribute to the Retrotec Twin
http://www.ingliscycles.com/retro_twin.php
And that particular Retrotec, of course, takes styling cues from several different vintage bikes.
I used to own a Blacksheep until some scumbag ripped off my garage (and its was taken away still locked to anther bike). Budnitz ripped off James from Blacksheep's designs, plain and simple.
The Blacksheep was a thing of beauty and worth every penny I invested. One day it will come back to me.
Yeah, like i mentioned up higher in the thread, Buddnitz himself was once a Blacksheep customer, and apparently he asked James to help him design prototypes so he could send them out as a basis for mass-production. It's weird, how a lot of things come around and go around; i recall a lot of ppl criticizing Blacksheep BITD for knocking-off Jeff Jones. Jeff Jones does offer some very unique geometry, but the "Spaceframe" concept with the extra tubes and, of course, truss rods, all of those ideas are older than Jones himself.
Rat Rod
Owner & Founder
I'm not sure how anyone can claim total rights to a frame design. All someone has to do is change an angle or a tube here and there and then it's their design. There's really only so many ways that you can design a bike frame so there's always going to be similarities amongst builders.
I think the correct term they use these days is "inspired by."
I think the correct term they use these days is "inspired by."
I'm not sure how anyone can claim total rights to a frame design. All someone has to do is change an angle or a tube here and there and then it's their design. There's really only so many ways that you can design a bike frame so there's always going to be similarities amongst builders.
I think the correct term they use these days is "inspired by."
You're absolutely right. While someone could patent a new feature, there is no way to copyright geometry. I could ape someone's frame inch-for-inch, angle-for-angle, and they wouldn't have any legal complaint against me. I think the whole situation with BlackSheep/Buddnitz is different than that, though, as the geometry of the bikes in question differs, but the back story is definitely a bit weird.
I've had a hankering to build frames, and i think i'm going to start by making a TIG-welded/OPC version of the Raleigh Sports frame, as I still think those bikes offer the best ride and geometry in the history of cycling, for basic/"normal" commuting. And, if I ever sold any frames like that, I'd consider that a selling point, as in "these are Raleigh Sports knock-offs, in terms of geometry. Order yours today!!!!"
Now, as far as the Simple One goes, it really does look like Buddnitz is offering a titanium clone of the turn-of-the-century Giant. The lines are realllllly similar. And, honestly, I don't think that's a knock on either the Simple One or the Buddnitz. It's just kinda surprising.
Rat Rod
Owner & Founder
Face it. Anybody here with a $3000 bicycle has a museum quality antique or a pro level performance bike.
Conclusion?
Steve's trolling for a free test ride.
Ha Ha....the price is definitely goofy. I'd go out and buy a car or a motorcycle before I even considered spending that much on a bike.
I just like the clean design and high end components on the bike. It inspires me to build something similar.
