How do you guys bust rust this bad?

[RustySprockets]

Awesome, I'll give it a shot! Thanks for your help! I've got just the tube to use for this. I'll probably want to remove the seat post after I remove the bearing cups though, so I'll have more room to work with.

Good luck! Obviously this only works on a bike with an open BB shell, but I've been thinking about how to grip it from the top. For the bearing cups, most people I know drive them out with a 2lb hammer and soft metal punch--aluminum or brass. Things might go easier if you lay the frame on its side and support it adjacent to the shell. You only need enough space between the frame and floor for the cups to pop out. The cups are just a press-fit, so don't be afraid to wail all around their perimeter.

Once out, I second the use of citric acid to bathe rusty loose parts. It's safer than some of the other products and you can adjust the concentration by the amount of powder you use. Not the fastest, but it works.

 

[SantaMark]

WD-40 would free up a lot of things on your cool old Phantom. Looks like a very challenging project. Good luck. If all else fails, the frame and wheels would make a great piece of art for a shop, bar or restaurant - or a museum.

 

[GuitarlCarl]

The washer size to fit the inside of the tube and catch the seatpost, will not go in from the bottom on a Schwinn. The electroforged joint is smaller inside dimension. I think most bikes with jointed connections are smaller inside too with the exception being a lugged frame. That threaded rod trick might work on a lugged frame, but not a Schwinn.

GC.

 

[us56456712]

If nothing else workers, before giving up, use your tranny mix or penetrating oil and soak everything over and over, at least weekly for 4 or 5 months. Ultrasonic occasionally. Since it’s too big for a jewelry cleaner I use an ultrasonic tooth brush with an old head and do that with each oil flooding. If that doesn’t work, if you have an acetylene torch, use it to get the stuck parts red hot and wrap a wet rag around the stuck place. The steam works every time as it penetrates everything. Hopefully you won’t have to go to this extreme but both these methods have worked for me. I had stuck model A lever shocks and I tried it all, wouldn’t budge. I couldn’t believe how well they busted free with the wet rag and steam.

 

[rickpaulos]

Sometimes the old Schwinns are just too far gone. I really dug this up in my back yard.

 

[us56456712]

Sometimes the old Schwinns are just too far gone. I really dug this up in my back yard.

That can be saved

 

[RustySprockets]

Any chance you can introduce a smaller nut and wedge it inside the post where the neck narrows? I think there's a higher probability of damage to the seat post that way, but the frame would be saved.

 

[rickpaulos]

stuck seat post:

Hammer it in enough to break it loose.

if the post doesn't stick out, use a steel rod as a drift punch and hammer the seat post in farther. If you can break it loose, hammer it in far enough so you can install another seat post above it. I had a tandem (girls back seat) that had a extra seat post hammered way in to keep the seat tube from bending. double wall tubing! The extra weight won't be noticed on this type of bike.

If the stuck seat post is sticking out, weld a long bar to the top so you can twist with a lot of torque and pull. Plumbing pipe wrenches don't work well for this. they tend to crush the post before it moves.

I've tried about every type of penetrating product. Liquid Wrench, Kroll Oil, PB Blaster, wd-40, and some others. None of them seem any better than the others. I suspect most are just kerosene with additives including scent. Any is better than nothing and keep applying and let it soak, days sometimes.

Heat up the seat tube and twist. If you use heat after all that penetrating stuff, expect fire so do that outdoors. Home owner plumbing propane torches usually don't get hot enough. MAPP or oxy/acc will sure turn it all red hot..

Weld a nut to the top of the seat post so you can thread a slide hammer in to the nut. Slide hammers are great for hammering your flesh so watch your hands. Wear thick leather gloves too. My local Autozone store loans slide hammer kits.

Drill it out. Cut the post off square at the top of the frame, use a 13/16" drill bit and a powerful drill.

 

[rickpaulos]

BTW, what is the age of the frame? Old Schwinns used to be brass filled brazed, then sometime in the 1950s, Schwinn changed over to the ElectroForged method of electric flash welding. Guitar Carl is right about the inside of the seat tube to bb shell joint being narrow on EF frames. You could try to grind it out but the best tool would be a dremel with a 90 degree adapter (do they even make them that small?). It's a pita to get access in their. But the brass brazed frames shouldn't have that restriction. The threaded rod method might work on one of those.

I've used the threaded rod method. I cut the seat post off about 1/4" above the frame and used a large socket on top, with washers and a nut to turn to extract the seat post. As the post moved up some, i'd cut off more of the post.

 

[Bike from the Dead]

Any chance you can introduce a smaller nut and wedge it inside the post where the neck narrows? I think there's a higher probability of damage to the seat post that way, but the frame would be saved.

I've thought about it, but after trying to remove the seat post another way, I now know the only way it's coming out is if I let it soak in some solution for weeks or months. It's weak enough that it'll snap that way.

 

[Bike from the Dead]

stuck seat post:

Hammer it in enough to break it loose.

if the post doesn't stick out, use a steel rod as a drift punch and hammer the seat post in farther. If you can break it loose, hammer it in far enough so you can install another seat post above it. I had a tandem (girls back seat) that had a extra seat post hammered way in to keep the seat tube from bending. double wall tubing! The extra weight won't be noticed on this type of bike.

If the stuck seat post is sticking out, weld a long bar to the top so you can twist with a lot of torque and pull. Plumbing pipe wrenches don't work well for this. they tend to crush the post before it moves.

I've tried about every type of penetrating product. Liquid Wrench, Kroll Oil, PB Blaster, wd-40, and some others. None of them seem any better than the others. I suspect most are just kerosene with additives including scent. Any is better than nothing and keep applying and let it soak, days sometimes.

Heat up the seat tube and twist. If you use heat after all that penetrating stuff, expect fire so do that outdoors. Home owner plumbing propane torches usually don't get hot enough. MAPP or oxy/acc will sure turn it all red hot..

Weld a nut to the top of the seat post so you can thread a slide hammer in to the nut. Slide hammers are great for hammering your flesh so watch your hands. Wear thick leather gloves too. My local Autozone store loans slide hammer kits.

Drill it out. Cut the post off square at the top of the frame, use a 13/16" drill bit and a powerful drill.

I tried welding a piece of angle iron to the top of the seat post so I could use a vice to twist it, but it was clearly going to snap. It's stuck that tight. Tried hammering on the angle iron to, but to no avail. The only way that seat post is coming out is with weeks/months of soaking in penetrating fluid.

BTW, what is the age of the frame? Old Schwinns used to be brass filled brazed, then sometime in the 1950s, Schwinn changed over to the ElectroForged method of electric flash welding. Guitar Carl is right about the inside of the seat tube to bb shell joint being narrow on EF frames. You could try to grind it out but the best tool would be a dremel with a 90 degree adapter (do they even make them that small?). It's a pita to get access in their. But the brass brazed frames shouldn't have that restriction. The threaded rod method might work on one of those.

I've used the threaded rod method. I cut the seat post off about 1/4" above the frame and used a large socket on top, with washers and a nut to turn to extract the seat post. As the post moved up some, i'd cut off more of the post.

I believe it's a 1955, since it's still a balloon tire bike. Yeah, the joint makes that all-thread idea pretty much useless without modifying the frame. I'd like to try and avoid messing up the frame if I can help it. You did give me an idea though: What if I tapped some threads for a large bolt into the seat post, and used that to help break the seat post loose?

 

[us56456712]

I’ve a brilliant piece of advice, but I never take my own advice. Put fire crackers in the tubes next to what’s stuck. Firecrackers now are wimpy so they won’t distort anything. In fact, their so wimpy that they might do nothing. In the 1950s Zebra firecrackers would blow off your fingers, now they don’t even blow up a can. The old Zebras would destroy the bicycle tubes. Lady fingers back then were many times more powerful than todays Zebras. A lady finger would split the seam and blow the top off a tomato paste can. A Zebra would fold and roll up a tomato paste can. I would try firecrackers, it will be fun if nothing else.

 

[Bike from the Dead]

A little over a week ago, I tried doing a light "power wash" with the hose attachment to try and clean off some of the moss growing on the frame. I don't think I did much that way, but it didn't seem to hurt the bike at least.

Looks like someone spilt either some paint or tar all over this bike at some point. I think I can get some of it to come off, but I don't know if I'll be able to get rid of it all.

The bearing cups are all junk. I highly doubt I'll be able to use any of these at all. They're all in probably the worst condition I've ever seen!

I did find something while hosing this bike down that I had missed before. There's a small hole and dent on the inside of the left chain stay. I don't know if it's so bad that I can't ride it without welding it up, but I at least hope it's not so bad that I can't ride this bike without at least welding it shut.

The dropouts are nice and straight, but the left fender brace mount... not so much. It's not such a big deal that it ruins the whole bike for me, but I do what to fix it.

 

[Bike from the Dead]

Got all the bearings and bearing cups out earlier this week! I took the frame over to a friend, who busted out each cup like it was nothing. Turns out all I needed was to place the frame on a concrete floor, with a wood block for bracing, and knock out each cup with a punch and hammer!

I mocked up a wheel and tire to see if everything lined up right, and thankfully, the wheel lines up dead even between both the chain stays and seat stays! I didn't notice it until later, but the right seat stay looks to be dented inward just a little bit. I don't know if that means this bike is unrideable as-is, but it doesn't seem to affect the alignment of the rear wheel at least.

A better look at what was (and wasn't) removed from the frame.

Not only did we get the bearings/cups removed, we also removed the seat, seat clamp, head badge and head badge bolts.

Here's where we didn't make much progress. My friend tried a number of different ways to remove the seat post, including hammering it down into the seat tube and welding this piece of angle iron on top and twisting it in the vise or hammering it from underneath. Wouldn't budge, and in fact, was ready to break. So, it looks like I'll need to soak the tube in some rust penetrant for a while, but after that, I'd like to try tapping the inside of the seat post, threading a bolt deep inside of it, and twisting it in a vice or pulling it with an axle puller. That's not going to happen for a while though, but at least I've got a few ideas on how to remove it.

With the bearing cups out, I can now get an idea of what the red paint originally looked like!

Thankfully, the bottom bracket's not in bad shape.

So, that's where I'm at now. If I can wait patiently for long enough, I should be able to get that seat post out and start building this frame back up!

 

[RustySprockets]

An associate of mine once saved a valuable Miyata frame by gently heating with a propane torch, then plunging just the exposed portion of the stuck post in a bucket of ice-filled water. You may be reluctant to use heat, but that area will be covered by the seat clamp. Anyway, expansion-contraction is another idea to explore.

 

[billn]

Would citric/oxalic acid mess up what's left of the red paint? I know there are some old red paints that survive acid baths, but I don't know how to tell.

I have soaked motorcycle gas tanks in OA and not had paint damage. I've soaked chrome bike frames in OA and not had the decals affected.

 

[billn]

I'm also using Finish Line Chill Zone a lot right now - it's a penetrating oil in an aerosol can that comes out SUPER COLD. As the metal contracts and expands, it breaks the rust bonds and lets the penetrant in. It works really well.

 

[Bike from the Dead]

I'm also using Finish Line Chill Zone a lot right now - it's a penetrating oil in an aerosol can that comes out SUPER COLD. As the metal contracts and expands, it breaks the rust bonds and lets the penetrant in. It works really well.

Cool! Never heard of the stuff before. I'll have to see if I can find some. Thanks!

 

[Indyjps]

Plug the seat post. Turn the frame upside down and fill the seat tube with either citric acid mix, or atf / acetone thru the hole in the bottom bracket.
That amount if crust may be worth acid treatment, then penetrating oil.

 

[Ulu]

Well you cannot save the seat post now, so my suggestion is just cut it off, then take a fine hacksaw blade (wrap some tape around one end so you don’t cut your hands) and stick it down in the seat post and start cutting.

In about one hour you will be able to cut that seat post off and cut a slot in it from the inside. Once you have cut a kerf the length of the seat post, It will be able to collapse a little bit and loosen.

If knocking the seat post with hammer at that point doesn’t loosen it, you can always cut a second slot. It’s tedious work but you’ve been fiddling with this frame a long time already, and you could’ve done it this way in the first hour of work.