New Rats or Old Rats?

[order99]

I love the vintage stuff...and by Vintage I mean anything from the 1970's or earlier due to its quality and durability. Best unmodified bike I ever had was a 1968 Emory lugged frame-bought it to cut up and weld for $15.00-



-BUT once I scoured off all the Ninja turtle stickers some yahoo had plastered on it and saw the loveliness beneath...well, it was time for oven cleaner, bits of black touch-up paint, Turtle Wax, new tubes and a front brake to accompany the Coaster wheel. Rode it for four years and gave it to a neighbor before my relocation.

These days though, i'm sticking to the cheapest stuff I can get-usually that means a Wally World special that's been rode for a few years left in the rain and given away to a Goodwill or left for trash collection. Why? Because I can get them from between $5 and $10, take the parts I need and use the rest for emergency gussets, plugs and doodads, with no sense of guilt whatsoever.

I won't cut or bend what I consider to be a good frame-i'll try to restore what I can, substitute when necessary and repaint when needed (spray can due to lack of facilities and spare cash). But-because YOU PEOPLE have infected my feeble brain with this website- -I am now trying my novice hands at frame modification...and while I love the idea of re-purposing frames I won't harm a decent one in the process, especially since i'm currently limited to hacksaw, MAAP torch and bronze rod, ballpeen hammer and spray can as my tools and the Great Outdoors as my shop.

At any rate, the cheap stuff is just fine for prototyping, the frames I use haven't bent under the weight of a 220 lb man jumping up and down on them (I had to narrow the triangle the hard way with pie-slice cuts and bronze fill) and if any of my poor experiments survive the process I can upgrade components as I go...and reinforce the frame as well. If I want a lightweight design i'll get into bamboo tubes and epoxy or something...

 

[Bicycle808]

OK, now I just wanna see pics of the lugged-frame Emory.

I think that cruiser style bikes, seems like their golden years were the 30s through 50s, but still quite good in the 60s and 70s.... hit or miss thereafter. But, as far as roadbikes go, the 80s were the greatest, in my opinion. Jus enough technology, coupled with just the right amount of tradition. Mainstream top-line bikes were still steel-framed, in many cases. Lightweight, but often durable. Nice. For mtbs, late 80s thru mid 90s are my favorites; I'm a sucker for chainstay brakes, and seeing all the innovation and evolutionary dead-ends that occurred with mtbs as the "boom" hit was fascinating. BMX? 70s/early 80s stuff was the raddest in terms of style, but from a functional standpoint, they just keep getting better. I have a certain respect for the crazy-heavy mid-school BMX bikes, like the S&M H.A.F....

The more I think about this, the more I realize that the age of a given bike or frame is pretty superficial. Yeah, there are some very solid generalizations that can be made based on vintage, but let's be honest: there were some real turds, even way back in the day, and there are still some really awesome frames being made today. In the end, I could care less about what year a bike was made, although I'd be lying if I didn't say that the qualities i prefer show up most often in somewhat older bikes.

 

[order99]

"OK, now I just wanna see pics of the lugged-frame Emory."

If only I had had a working camera at the time... The closest picture I could find on the internet was here-

http://bmxmuseum.com/bikes/emory/64260

-only in faded black. The weird thing is, i'm not finding an Emory reference earlier than 1976, so maybe it wasn't a '68 after all...oh well, '76 was a good year too...

As far as quality vs. age-I think there's nothing like time to prove a frame. If there were inferior frames from the 1920's and '30's then those frames and their components have already failed utterly and all we have left is the best of the survivors from that period. It's not unlike Television's Golden age-everyone remembers Perry Mason, but who remembers My Mother the Car?

I'm noticing similar phenomena as I gather cheap used bikes on my limited budget-something labeled 'MT Climber' under the bad topcoat (yes, right OVER the decals! )
turns out to have I frame I cannot bend at all without cutting through to weaken and then braze back, yet half the bearings are ground into powder-bad quality or just overuse with no maintenance? The large-tubed girl's bike felt like EMT conduit to me but the inexpensive 20" alloy wheels remained perfectly trued-good quality or just never stressed by the previous owner? The Next that I sawed the rear triangle from (and chopped up real good for storage) had lovely strong tubing, impeccable welds and bulletproof bearing sets-but the wheels were laced with some sort of metal-colored pasta and the cranks were not only pitted but eaten near-through with corrosion....and the entire process seems to be completely random. Are we dealing with bad manufacturing in general, production of good parts coupled with bad quality control in matching-or just some Wally World employee grabbing random cheap components to put on decent frames? Good Lord knows i've caught Big Box stores putting front forks on backwards, forgetting to tighten crucial bolts, ad nauseum...

I can't help but think of the poor Yugo-a well-designed vehicle (no, seriously!) that had the misfortune of being assembled at a Yugoslavian facility that hadn't been properly set up for the process. During the end of that period, when the poor vehicle's reputation was tarnished beyond hope of recovery, an enterprising mechanic could purchase a brand new Yugo for 30% of it's original (cheap!) price, spend about 15-18 man-hours tightening every single bolt with a high-pressure air wrench, double-check the welds and make a few minor adjustments to the alignment/brakes/steering...and wind up with a brand-new, reliable subcompact that would get 39-44 mpg. I know of at least one NC mechanic who purchased a dozen 'unsellable' Yugos for $1000 apiece, wrenched each one into what they should have been in the first place, sold each brand-new Yugo for $5000 apiece with a 2-year personal service contract and a generous payment plan for the less-affluent...he made quite a decent sum and drove his own Yugo for 22 years until he ran out of replacement parts...

As long as we're discussing quality and age:

http://ghanabamboobikes.org/

Look at those things...bamboo, common, easily-replaced budget components, strands of hemp or sisal and epoxy coupled with a common, century+ old proven geometry. But LOOK AT THEM GO! Heavy-duty load-bearing frames, natural damping from the polymer composite tubing...glorious. Children are building these. Ordinary people who have never held a wrench before are learning to build these.

Is it a lack of quality we're dealing with, or just the lack of craftsmanship and quality control that Apathy brings?

I suffer from lack of funds, inadequate tools and little experience-but if my ancestors could make do with 19th century tech and still put out quality-then this 8'X8' shed, my handful of tools, bronze rod and MAAP torch and the open sky should be everything I need.

Oh, how did THAT get here? I can make a nice cargo basket out of that...

 

[Bicycle808]

As far as I know, Emory/Aerofast was a Schwinn distributor for the southeastern states until 1976, when they bought up some tooling from Rollfast and started building Emory bikes. Later, they built replicas (like, in the 90s.) I've never seen a lugged Emory, just welded frames, like the blue robo-built one you linked from the museum. FWIW, some folks call that tall version of the Mojave "the Ugly Frame." I think they're cool. I have the standard version robo-built Emory. It's a very cool bike...

Worksman makes a similar model called the m2600, which would be lugged, and would be theoretically available in 1968. Here's a picture of a m2600 frame, with a rad chrome finish:

And here's one of RRB member Mark Sr's customized almost complete m2600 bikes:

Might that be the kind of bike you had? I don't own any m2600s (yet), but I do have some Worksman bikes; the frames are bombproof, and the ride is nice.....they weigh a ton, though. My Emory is noticeably lighter than any of my Worksman INBs....

Cool link to the bamboo bikes. I think that, among the myriad of economical and political disadvantages that US industry has on it these days, we're also faced with apathy, hopelessness, and a generalized lack of pride among our workforce. Even if we can find a way to overcome the financial obstacles, we won't be able to compete unless we bring back some of the pride and work ethic that many American workers currently lack.

 

[Bicycle808]

PS- I knew a girl who had, like, the one well-assembled Yugo. She got it from her grandmom who bought it new in the 80s; it received only routine maintenance until it finally rusted in half about 6 years ago.... I guess the paint job combined with NJ road salt was too much for it, but it just kept running!

 

[sojudave]

New Rat-style bikes with new parts and designs are filling a market void today as the visibility of Old Rats increases.
Personally, I think any bicycle is a good bicycle and encourage it even though not all-USA made...

The question is: Do you think new rats will make old rats more valuable and even cooler?

I once read in an old iron horse form the mid 90's that you don't build a rat bike. You grow it. The author posited that rats are these creatures that are held together in the most economical ways possible (i.e. duct tape and bailing wire).

I tend to hold to this point of view as well. So I can't buy a new rat bike just like I can't buy a new jalopy.

 

[order99]

As far as I know, Emory/Aerofast was a Schwinn distributor for the southeastern states until 1976, when they bought up some tooling from Rollfast and started building Emory bikes. Later, they built replicas (like, in the 90s.) I've never seen a lugged Emory, just welded frames, like the blue robo-built one you linked from the museum. FWIW, some folks call that tall version of the Mojave "the Ugly Frame." I think they're cool. I have the standard version robo-built Emory. It's a very cool bike...

Worksman makes a similar model called the m2600, which would be lugged, and would be theoretically available in 1968. Here's a picture of a m2600 frame, with a rad chrome finish:

And here's one of RRB member Mark Sr's customized almost complete m2600 bikes:

Might that be the kind of bike you had? I don't own any m2600s (yet), but I do have some Worksman bikes; the frames are bombproof, and the ride is nice.....they weigh a ton, though. My Emory is noticeably lighter than any of my Worksman INBs....

Cool link to the bamboo bikes. I think that, among the myriad of economical and political disadvantages that US industry has on it these days, we're also faced with apathy, hopelessness, and a generalized lack of pride among our workforce. Even if we can find a way to overcome the financial obstacles, we won't be able to compete unless we bring back some of the pride and work ethic that many American workers currently lack.

Okay, that is just weird. I know the frame was lugged-maybe an Emory rebadge of a surplus m2600 lying in the warehouse? Oh well, i'll let its new owner worry about it-though to be honest once he rode it a few times he didn't care if it was built by Hasbro...

More and more, I think the real quality is either going to be found with the high-end market (complete with the 'OW MY WALLET!' pricing) and the DIY/handcrafted markets(which will cost you just as much in either money or sweat) The good news is that bikes are a robust and mature technology and that even the cheap parts will work for awhile with a little TLC, and upgrades are available if you fall in love with your inexpensive(and probably modified) frame.

Point of fact, the availability of low-end parts is what gave me the courage to explore this Ratrodding craze to begin with. Today I tried to braze a broken gooseneck directly to the underside of a fork to hold some battered Ape hangers-then I popped in the hangers and tried to brute-force the joint into breaking off. Sadly I succeeded-



-and then I ran out of daylight.

Sniff....where was I? Oh, right-can anyone here imagine me desecrating a vintage Spaceliner like that? Or a Hiawatha? I know that some here would do that, especially if it had enough battlescars to ruin the collectibility of it, but....well, see THIS guy?

http://www.woodenbikes.com/

This guy raids dumpsters and makes them roll-if HE can do it, the by Gum I can do it too, and hopefully a little prettier. If not i'll post the pics anyway and let you all laugh at them.

 

[Bicycle808]

I have a 1940 CWC frame I clunk. I was originally going to build a regular cruiser with it. The frame was rust free but the right rear chain stay was bent. I straitened it in a homemade jig and clunk it. If it weren't originally bent I wouldn't have clunked it. There are quite a few new bikes now with frames that look similar to the old prewar jobs they used. I think the Walmart Schwinn Low Glide would be a good modern base and it will only set you back $170. It has 29 inch wheels, but you got to give up something. It appears to have good pedal ground clearance. Remove the fenders, chain guard and rack and there is your basic clunker. If you are a little more serious put on a smaller front chainring. That would be my choice if I were to do it again. I wouldn't have to cold set the frame and the paint would be done and close to the original Schwinn prewar style. I would probably have the same amount of money in it as my CWC by the time I changed the rims, maybe the fork, seat, maybe the brakes, maybe the bars, grips, pedals, gearing etc. Most trail riders would not know that it wasn't the real deal. 90% of them don't even know what a clunker is. I think such a bike would be tons of fun on single track and nothing would be vintage. You could clunk it right away and change stuff as you see fit. We used to two track and hiking trail ride on old 10 or 3 speeds with 26 x 1 3/8 wheels way before anyone was mountain biking or clunking out west. I think taking a bike off road is the second thing people did after road riding. Look at the early road races who started steeple chasing for fun and inadvertently invented cyclocross. It didn't occur to us to use balloon tired bikes because we didn't have any. I think anyone who ever had a bike took it off road to some degree. The Low Glide would be such an improvement over what we were using. No more crashing every time you came down a hill and hit a sand wash. You could roll over stuff we never could. There is a lower center of gravity. This wouldn't be a mountain bike but it would challenge you and be gobs of fun. I almost wish I would have started with one of these instead of the CWC.

Low Glides have aluminum frames, so I personally wouldn't klunk one.... but everyone's got their own preferences, I guess. But yeah, obviously ppl were riding bikes offroad before klunking was a "thing". Bikes were invented before paved roads became common. Ppl were riding trails on boneshakers in the 1800s. Cyclocross was popular for a loooooong time, too. Its somewhat recent resurgence had me believing it was a hot "new" thing about 15 years ago.... but it's an ancient sport, and was popular in the USA long before i was born.

Okay, that is just weird. I know the frame was lugged-maybe an Emory rebadge of a surplus m2600 lying in the warehouse? Oh well, i'll let its new owner worry about it-though to be honest once he rode it a few times he didn't care if it was built by Hasbro...

More and more, I think the real quality is either going to be found with the high-end market (complete with the 'OW MY WALLET!' pricing) and the DIY/handcrafted markets(which will cost you just as much in either money or sweat) The good news is that bikes are a robust and mature technology and that even the cheap parts will work for awhile with a little TLC, and upgrades are available if you fall in love with your inexpensive(and probably modified) frame.

Point of fact, the availability of low-end parts is what gave me the courage to explore this Ratrodding craze to begin with. Today I tried to braze a broken gooseneck directly to the underside of a fork to hold some battered Ape hangers-then I popped in the hangers and tried to brute-force the joint into breaking off. Sadly I succeeded-



-and then I ran out of daylight.

Sniff....where was I? Oh, right-can anyone here imagine me desecrating a vintage Spaceliner like that? Or a Hiawatha? I know that some here would do that, especially if it had enough battlescars to ruin the collectibility of it, but....well, see THIS guy?

http://www.woodenbikes.com/

This guy raids dumpsters and makes them roll-if HE can do it, the by Gum I can do it too, and hopefully a little prettier. If not i'll post the pics anyway and let you all laugh at them.

Hey, it could've been a lugged Emory. I've never seen one, nor seen a picture of one, nor read or heard reference to one ever before. But, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. There's a whole lot i've never seen, and a whole lot I still don't know about. I'm just saying, every Emory I've ever heard of,read about, seen, or ridden was welded. And, the m2600 looks a whole lot like a lugged version of the tall-frame Emory Mojave.... So, that's my guess. Bikes are weird, though.... i learn something new about bikes almost every day. A simple machine, with a very complicated history and culture...

 

[horsefarmer]

My my, this thread has made lots of twists and turns! I Don't know if new bikes add to the visibility of our hobby or to the value of our creations, but it does keep adding to the gene pool - both mechanical and human. Pretty sure the free market will keep museum quality bicycles out of our greasy mitts, so we are left to our own devices. Yard sales, Fleabay, Thrift stores and the dumpster! I think rat rod bikes are kinda like the 1950's American cars chugging around Havana today, Survivors - creations of their owners ingenuity, living on far beyond anyone's expectations.

 

[jeepjunky]

I love my new Walmart bike, I also love my older bikes. My Walmart bike rides fine and is yet to fold in half or catch fire. If I had to choose I'd go for the older bikes, but to me it's whatever makes you happy and right now I'm having a blast building my Walmart bike.

 

[SILVERKINGPC]

There were so many bicycles, and so many fiercely-competing makers from the 10's-50's that during this time, the bike makers pushed the aesthetics, so important to attracting sales, while sticking with bomber gauge steels. Aesthetics and function with interchangeability really dominated then. Because of this, the old fluid frame designs really begin the Rat for me, particularly since the frame is the backbone of the bike. That said, a rat doesn't have to have an old frame to be a rat.... Another thread perhaps.

 

[order99]

There were so many bicycles, and so many fiercely-competing makers from the 10's-50's that during this time, the bike makers pushed the aesthetics, so important to attracting sales, while sticking with bomber gauge steels. Aesthetics and function with interchangeability really dominated then. Because of this, the old fluid frame designs really begin the Rat for me, particularly since the frame is the backbone of the bike. That said, a rat doesn't have to have an old frame to be a rat.... Another thread perhaps.

That really was the Golden Age for bicycles wasn't it? Pre-Interstate, Pre-Surburbia, with bikes seen as viable vehicles and tools instead of toys-it probably made a great deal of difference. On the other talon, there's a lot of money in cycling as a sport these days, but all of the innovation seems to be poured into a specific specialty (Tour de France, Motocross/BMX etc) and not so much of the " Look at this awesome new thing it is unique and pretty and you must have one! " appeal of the Classic designs...

I think any innovation aside from the 'lighter, faster' specialized bikes is going to come from where it always has- the DIY'er and the small businessman/craftsman. Maybe the net effect of newer designs 'inspired by' the Classics would be a revival of functional, beautiful designs again...it might be just possible that all of this internet-sharing between DIY, certified Engineering, small-batch Craftsman and mainstream Factories could heterodyne into a new trend for Cycling as a more serious pastime again? Despite the need for actual Cycling infrastructure again-

-and the first real roads were built for cyclists , dang it-

-maybe we'll see that resurgence before i'm too old to enjoy it? I can live in hope...

Oh, and I do have hope for China as well...remember when 'Made in Japan' denoted second-rate goods (early '50's-mid '60's) or when 'Made in Hong Kong' was the kiss of death for your manufacturing cred? China will improve when it is economically feasible to do so-in fact most of my ultra-cheap yard sale bikes are better than I expected overall so... maybe i'm seeing a difference between certain factories getting with the program while others are playing catch up? I'm pretty sure none of these cycles had in-house manufacture of every component they used after all...

Gah!! When did I start rambling like this on my Posts? I'll be screaming at all the young'uns to "GIT OFF MAH LAWN!" next-

-unless you're touring the lawn by bicycle of course, you can stay then 'cause all the Cool Kids have bikes.

 

[deorman]

Yes.

 

[sojudave]

I love my new Walmart bike, I also love my older bikes. My Walmart bike rides fine and is yet to fold in half or catch fire. If I had to choose I'd go for the older bikes, but to me it's whatever makes you happy and right now I'm having a blast building my Walmart bike.

I will happily buy a walmart bike. In fact, they got this black 29er cruiser by ozone that's been making me salivate. Thing looks like a beast, yo! But I recently picked up my old, mildly rusted Academy cruiser frame from my father-in-laws house and I want to put it back together, rust, apes and all.

 

[Bob Gray]

PS- I knew a girl who had, like, the one well-assembled Yugo. She got it from her grandmom who bought it new in the 80s; it received only routine maintenance until it finally rusted in half about 6 years ago.... I guess the paint job combined with NJ road salt was too much for it, but it just kept running!

I've read that the Yugo's could actually be decent cars if you were willing to repair and maintain them right. From what I understand, the folks in Eastern Europe under communist rule didn't really expect the cars to come out of the factory in working order. They were kind of like Walmart bikes. You had to go through them first and reassemble things properly and once you did that you had to maintain and adjust them regularly. The Eastern Europeans knew this and knew how to keep them running but it was something few Americans were willing to accept.

 

[hewey]

Here in Australia we don't have the old balloon tyre cruisers. Plenty of old skinny steel diamond frame roadbikes, but nothing that'll swallow a nice fat 26 inch whitewall. So the new brand name bikes like Dyno, Felt, Electra etc mean we actually get some neat bikes to play with. And now even those are getting old enough need resto work, which also means you can pick em nice and cheap.

 

[Flying Zombie]

Oldies.
Proud owner of both:
'69 Otasco Badged Murray
'39 Columbia Westfield

 

[Bicycle808]

Oldies.
Proud owner of both:
'69 Otasco Badged Murray
'39 Columbia Westfield

Y'ain't proud of your new bikes, too?

 

[Flying Zombie]

Y'ain't proud of your new bikes, too?

New bikes? My Murray is as new as it gets, complete.
I've begun to sell off that 07 stingray for tools and misc. parts.. currently looking for another seat cover., and the rest of the stuff is parts for my Westfield.

 

[SILVERKINGPC]

This thread came out like I thought...good ramblings. I will admit that I ride an custom-build IBIS Mojo SL as my MTB sled, and it is a China-made frame, but they are very high quality and well tested. It is not a rat, but I do trust it 100%!(never aluminum again) But in terms of rats, for those who cannot get the old american frames, then you are forced to go with the fat-tire newbies that are coming into the picture as of late. They are a great option for going fat for sure. Love the B808 video of the two dudes on worksmans ripping it. Nice. I am surprised some feel that older bikes, original or not should be put away for fear of "wearing them out" How much enjoyment does the gentled bike feel when it becomes shedded and taken out of its element, raining, snowing or not? How does this "retired" bike feel when sitting in a shed unable to roll? How would you feel isolated and put to bed like that? Don't people wipe down or clean off their bikes after riding them in inclement conditions? How hard is that? Sad...
I would still reach for my older American-framed rat 1st if I had to make a choice between the old and new, but that only applies to non-MTB, non-racing, or not big elevation gain conditions..