Question for you wheel build experts...

[Mike G]

OK attempted my first foray into the mystical black magic realm of wheel building, a New Departure "D" coaster brake hub, drop center rim (all 36 hole, rim 26"). The wheel was broken down with 40+% of the spokes either seized, bent, or rusted beyond wanting to keep. Now I measured the spokes, 10 5/8" (270mm), the only difference was the original stuff had 3/4" brass nipples and obviously more thread area on the spokes. Ordered the 14g 10 5/8" (270mm) w/ nipples from Husky.

So here we go...
Via several videos I laced the thing up by first, outer fed spokes starting to the right of the valve stem hole, skip three holes, load the next. Flip the whole thing, same with the outer spokes using the next CW hole that lined up from the starting point... something to that effect any way, I'm assuming I got it correct cause the end result did in fact look like a wheel
Started the inner fed spokes with the usual hub assembly twist, inner spokes being fed going CW, over the outer fed spoke, over the next outer spoke, under the next outer fed spoke, skip the first hole, and thread to the next hole... What I believe is a "3 Cross" lace pattern, correct?
So everything is actually looking good at this point, it actually looks like a wheel!!! So I mark up a screwdriver so I can easier count the turns, work my way around the first time and everything is still looking good... repeat. So now here's where the problem occurs, next run through and I'm bottoming out the nipples... and the spokes still ain't close to tight!

Now beings that this is my first attempt I'm actually pretty cool with the fact that something is messed up... it was at least round, the dish appeared to centered on the hub, spokes just seem too long?! So since I measured the spokes that were on the wheel and they were in fact 10 5/8" is it possible that the original wheel was laced in a "4 cross" pattern? Does that even exist? If so was a 4 cross pattern the norm in the skip tooth era?

I'm looking for an assessment here, so please don't just post a link on wheel building how to's... of course if my assumption is correct I'll take a 36 hole 4 cross wheel build link happily!

Thanks in advance,
Mike

 

[Bicycle808]

Yes, a lot of old-school US wheels.... the type that had New Departure hubs.... were laced 4x. 4x requires longer spokes than 3x, given the same hub and rim, so that's consistent with your experience so far. You can still save this thing; undo whatcha did, and then re-lace 4x.... there's a very good chance that it'll work out fine. Definitely worth the shot, for both practice and to save the $$ you spent on spokes.

 

[The Black Monark]

Most balloon wheels of the 1930s-1950s were 4x. Just release the "head in" spokes from the nipples and cross them over 4 spokes, you should be fine.

 

[Mike G]

Thanks, I thought I'd heard of 4X and for some reason thought it was the physical "X" pattern of the spokes vs. what spoke paths they were crossing
.
So without getting too lengthy here, the 4X would be starting the first outer spoke same place (right of the valve) then skip 4 holes (vs. the 3X) on the rim for the second spoke insert.
Or am I reading this correct in that I don't have to move the outer spokes:
Just release the "head in" spokes from the nipples and cross them over 4 spokes, you should be fine.

On the inner spokes, going CW over, over, over, under, skip the next hole and thread in the next, sound about right? Of course I am assuming my quick scenario is making some sort of sense???

 

[B607]

Skip 3, not 4. That would never work out if I'm reading you right. Gary

 

[The Black Monark]

The USA balloon tire 4-cross wheels were not "interlaced", and the second hole in the rim forward of the valve hole is usually the first right spoke.
I'm not the best at explaining this but here goes:
Heads out and heads in left and right spokes will always be spaced every 4th hole regardless of # of crosses, so you can leave your first 2 steps of spokes (heads out) where they are (given that they were placed correctly) then place your heads in spokes in their corresponding left and right holes after they cross 4 heads out spokes.
There are 4 possible positions for spokes, right & left, head in & head out: hubs have hole counts in multiples of 4, and spokes are grouped in fours. You can see this pattern when looking at a completed wheel.
I know you've looked at tutorials online, but I'll share Sheldon Brown's in case you missed it:

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

 

[Bicycle808]

Most balloon wheels of the 1930s-1950s were 4x. Just release the "head in" spokes from the nipples and cross them over 4 spokes, you should be fine.

Wow, I bet that would save some time and trouble! I always tend to take the "scorched earth/start over from the ground-up" approach, which sometimes works to my advantage; in other cases, it probably wastes a lot of time.

 

[The Black Monark]

Once you get the hang of it putting 36 spokes into a wheel doesn't take more than 10-15min or so

 

[Mike G]

OK, so that would appear to be the problem, 3X vs 4X that is.
So that's exactly what I did, removed the inner spokes (as suggested. Thanks again!), relaced them as over, over, over, under, skip a the first hole, thread the next... Now from a quick eyeball (Notice only one eyeball as I'm going in for eye surgery Wednesday!) it at least looks like a wheel, the spokes all seem to have snugged up nicely to the rim this time and no bottom out on the nipples at this stage. Seems round and dished evenly on both sides.

I guess it might be a good idea to now put the guts back in the hub so I can see if it's even remotely close to true

Thanks for the help and advice! On to the front wheel permitting I can finish painting that rim tomorrow.

 

[mornview]

Just curious - are there any strength advantages to a 4x laced wheel? I always lace 3x, even when it had originally been 2x.

 

[The Black Monark]

I've not seen any info on this. Here's a link to some testing on wheels:

http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

I've not seen any data supporting the idea that interlacing spokes (over (x) under 1) increases strength or lateral stiffness either. When building wheels for vintage bikes (they all get ridden) I build them as they were originally: 4 cross, not interlaced.

 

[Herman]

It's been awhile so I could be mistaken but I seem to remember 4x on the rear and 3x on the front wheel on vintage bikes , same 10 5/8 in spokes , just laced different because of the difference in hub diameter , no interlacing

 

[The Black Monark]

ND D rear and W or WL front are both 4-cross 10 5/8".
Also Musselman Olympic front & rear, New Departure WD, Musselman M (Elgin Air-Cooled) and Elgin Air-Cooled front, Morrow coaster.

 

[Mike G]

It's been awhile so I could be mistaken but I seem to remember 4x on the rear and 3x on the front wheel on vintage bikes , same 10 5/8 in spokes , just laced different because of the difference in hub diameter , no interlacing

I got the front rim painted earlier today and just laced it up 4X also with the 10 5/8" spokes, New Departure "D" on the rear and whatever the ND front hub model is (I just went to check but can't read it)... I'm by no means an expert at this stage but after the 3X vs 4X scenario on the rear I'm inclined to say the 4X on the front is correct also. Granted it's probably not true but everything is snug, didn't appear to be any excessive pull on any of the spokes, and I'm pretty sure that if I'd gone 3X on the front I'd have had the same excess spoke length issue I had on the rear.

I do however have a question regarding spoke length. Seeing how a bunch of these vintage hubs are going 10 5/8" spokes running a 4X lace pattern (26" drop centers I'm assuming to be the case)... Does anybody happen to know what the spoke length would be for a 3X lace pattern, seems to me it would be as standard across the board as the 10 5/8" is for a 4X???

 

[Mike G]

I've not seen any info on this. Here's a link to some testing on wheels:

http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel/index.htm

I've not seen any data supporting the idea that interlacing spokes (over (x) over 1) increases strength or lateral stiffness either. When building wheels for vintage bikes (they all get ridden) I build them as they were originally: 4 cross, not interlaced.

I have an Ebay acquisition, a probably late 40's Ward's Hawthorne bee hive springer. It's running ND's front and rear but the rims are not drop center (More flat like the Schwinn rims), it's laced 3X (Which would probably make sense if the spokes are 10 5/8" and it's not being a drop center)... Now whether or not that original I cant say, they are in pretty nice shape but the rims have been painted in the current config.

 

[Bicycle808]

Once you get the hang of it putting 36 spokes into a wheel doesn't take more than 10-15min or so

True, but 15 minutes seems a lot longer than just moving half the spokes from one hole to the other....

Just curious - are there any strength advantages to a 4x laced wheel? I always lace 3x, even when it had originally been 2x.

Crosses are important for rear wheels and for wheels with hub brakes, as they brace each other against the twisting forces applied by the drivetrain or the hub brake. This is why some wheel manufacturers can get away with running radial patterns on fronts and even the NDS rear wheel on rim-brake wheels...but the rear DS will usually be laced at least 2x. In theory, 4x would provide more bracing than 3x, but in actual practice, 3x is plenty strong in terms of holding up against the "raw hp" of the typical cyclist, or the force generated by even the best modern disc brakes, let along drums and coasters.

When choosing how many crosses to lace, it makes sense to see what the angle of entry would be like. Low flange hubs in large-diameter rims wopuld benefit from 4x, whereas very high flange hubs in small diameter rims might be best off going 2x. (I wish i'd laced my Sturmey x-fd/x-rd drum hubs 2x in my 26" disc rims, as the nips are on an angle slightly askew of what I'd prefer....they work, but i think 2x would've worked better. )

For the majority of "normal" wheel builds, 3x is fine, but 4x works, too. 4x also has the advantage of increasing your chances of reusing spokes if you change the hub or rim; due to the less dramatic angle, the variance between required spoke lengths is greatly diminished. I suspect this may be why some manufacturers went 4x BITD; they would be better able to use old spoke inventory if the hubs or rims changed spec on them....

I tend to go for 3x b/c, well, the conventional wisdom during my shop days and the early days of the internet was that 3x was the prudent way to build. Time and experience has taught me that there are exceptions to these rules (eg, NuVinci specifies a 2 cross for their IGH, b/c the flanges are freak'n HUGE), so I stay loose, consider manufacturer's recommendations and physical parameters but most of the time, I'm still shooting for 3x.

 

[mornview]

Excellent info; right now I'm just doing conventional builds, but I'm sure I'll be branching into stranger territory soon.

(Just looked up pictures of those Sturmey hubs; those suckers are huge!)

 

[Mike G]

Hey Rob & "Monark",
I laced up the front (without referring to anything, which proved to be a set back!) in about 20 minutes. Realized I messed something up when the valve hole didn't have the parallel spokes surrounding it. Turns out I started the second side outer spokes in the wrong hole... took me about as long to break it back down as it did to do the re lace... a slight exaggeration, but had it re laced in about 15 minutes.

So both wheels are put together, fairly confident they're both done right, they aren't true but I figure that's where I do my part to support my LBS... at least I don't think they'll be laughing too hysterically when I hand over the two wheels.

 

[The Black Monark]

You're nearly there, true them up yourself, it's not difficult, just takes time.

 

[Mike G]

You're nearly there, true them up yourself, it's not difficult, just takes time.

I might attempt that if I could figure out exactly what's centered