Sears Hub 503.21 aka Steyr aka SA AW

[GuitarlCarl]

First a link to a previous post that got me looking at Sheldon Brown's site...
http://ratrodbikes.com/forum/index.php?threads/sturmey-archer-knowledge.83132/
That got me looking at Sutherland's...
http://sheldonbrown.com/sutherland.html
So I embarked on the disassembly of my Sears hub after the axle broke!
What I did discover was the Sears hub built in Austria by Steyr licensed by Sturmey Archer is a clone of the SA AW
(and which axle I needed, as there is more than one style depending on what hub they cloned)

What follows is a photo essay following Sutherland's excellent directions.

Carl.

 

[GuitarlCarl]

Seen one of these?

mine broke an axle - not cool

right at the RH axle nut

so I took off the non drive side nuts washers and cone...

quick tip: wanna keep the order straight and you're not reassembling it yet? zip tie...

per instructions, flip the wheel/hub over
and drive the ball ring off tapping it with a hammer and a punch.
The whole hub assembly then comes out of the hub shell.

I only took it down to subassemblys, I needed to see the axle...

Then I put the inner assembly back together.
Who knows how long it will take to get the axle?

So, I eventually will put it all back together loosely while I wait for a new axle to appear. But I wanted to share this with you'all. I couldn't find any doc's definitively proving the Sears hub was interchangeable with Sturmey Archer guts but it sure looks identical to me. The shell is different to be sure, but every step and piece in those detailed instructions from Suthereland's Handbook was exact, so I have no qualms about ordering a SA axle now...

Carl.

 

[Bicycle808]

Yeah, the SA axle should work; just measure how long the Steyr one was before it broke, and go with that. That way, you can use the same indicator chain without any problems....

Awesome photo journal, btw... i was always fascinated by the Steyr hubshell

 

[GuitarlCarl]

Yeah, the SA axle should work; just measure how long the Steyr one was before it broke, and go with that. That way, you can use the same indicator chain without any problems....

Awesome photo journal, btw... i was always fascinated by the Steyr hubshell

Thanks! The length was a concern and it seems the 107 model is the one I needed so as for now it's back together waiting for the parts to arrive. I like my old Shimano 3 speed and I'm looking forward to riding this SA. Folks seem to really like this old hub, the feel and the sound...

Carl.

 

[Bicycle808]

Yeah, i can't speak to the Steyr, but the AW s a great hub, and the Steyr has the same internal design. I love how trouble-free they are, after you get the initial setting right.... and i love that they are readily available in terms of spares, and very user-friendly in terms of rebuilding them goes. They also have ever so-slightly closer gear ratios, which is better suited to the flatlands i live in. Hillfolk might prefer the slightly wider steps of a Nexus or SRAM 3 speed...

 

[GuitarlCarl]

Got the replacement axle today.
It's the same and different...
my biggest concern is the different place for the slot.

So after I assembled it with the new axle (I had to try it!) it seems to work. It's hard to tell with the hub loose in my hand. I did try clamping the axle in my bench vise and actuating it by hand while turning the gear. I definitely have one gear easier but it's hard to tell if I'm getting both just turning it in hand. So when my spokes arrive and I lace it up we'll see if I now have a 3 speed or a two speed... I'm optimistic.

Carl.

 

[Bicycle808]

A few thoughts: You can tell "overdrive" on an unlaced hub by watching to see if the driver turns at a slower rate than the spoke holes in the flange. If they trn at the same rate, you're in 2nd (direct drive); if the flange outpaces the driver, you're in third (overdrive.) As for the slot being in a different spot, if this causes issues (and it may) you can probably remedy any issues by using a different indicator chain... they come in several lengths,and they're pretty cheap.

 

[GuitarlCarl]

A few thoughts: You can tell "overdrive" on an unlaced hub by watching to see if the driver turns at a slower rate than the spoke holes in the flange. If they trn at the same rate, you're in 2nd (direct drive); if the flange outpaces the driver, you're in third (overdrive.) As for the slot being in a different spot, if this causes issues (and it may) you can probably remedy any issues by using a different indicator chain... they come in several lengths,and they're pretty cheap.

I can't see the length of the chain having any difference on the gearing.
It's not set to any exact length, rather the coarse adjustment being made by where the solid cable mount is, and the fine adjustment made by the connection to the cable and the threaded adjuster.
Also, after clamping the axle in a vise and spinning the gear while pulling on the chain, I'm pretty sure I only have two gears now and I believe it's the length of the slot that's stopping me from a third ratio. The axle key travels in the slot and it moves the clutch in and out of the driver. This changes how easy or hard it is to pedal but does not spin the hub any faster than the gear...

Carl.

 

[Bicycle808]

Well, what i know is, Sturmey-Archer packs different indicator chains with for hub with different axle lengths/OLD spacing, but are otherwise identical. According to Sheldon, you can run most lengths in most hubs, unless the chain is too short to allow for third gear, or too long and the chain goes sideways regardless of cable tension. Even if your axle is a very similar length, the way the driveside half of the axle is arranged, it seems like it is effectively a longer axle than the original. If your chain is giving you enough slack to get third but you're not getting third, it could be that something is off in the internals, or it could just be that you have tension too tight. (If you're shifting by hand rather than by cable at this point, then best bet is to wait til you're cabled up and see...but if the chain is too short, you might have trouble engaging overdrive.)

 

[GuitarlCarl]

Your getting there, but I've read everything I can find and it's a lot. It's the length of the push rod that the chain connects to, that lines up the connection to the chain, with the window on the side of the RH axle nut. That's the indicator window for setting the whole thing up. Different length axle = different length indicator push rod. Now, having the slot in a different place on the axle is effectively changing the length of the axle too, so you have that right. But it's also not allowing the axle key to travel far enough to move the clutch into the third gear. When I was testing it, there was no restriction in the chain/indicator push rod, as I had the axle clamped vertically in my vise and was able to pull straight up on the chain. So, it's not a matter of length but the allowed amount of travel. Remember, I'm trying to use a real Sturmey Archer replacement axle in a Steyr made Sears hub that looks identical inside, but obviously has some internal dimensions different. I can change rod lengths all day and it's still not going to let the axle key move any farther than it physically can... look at the exploded drawing on Sutherland's page and look at the two axles I have... I haven't given up yet but this arrangement isn't 100%

Carl.

 

[Bicycle808]

Your getting there, but I've read everything I can find and it's a lot. It's the length of the push rod that the chain connects to, that lines up the connection to the chain, with the window on the side of the RH axle nut. That's the indicator window for setting the whole thing up. Different length axle = different length indicator push rod. Now, having the slot in a different place on the axle is effectively changing the length of the axle too, so you have that right. But it's also not allowing the axle key to travel far enough to move the clutch into the third gear. When I was testing it, there was no restriction in the chain/indicator push rod, as I had the axle clamped vertically in my vise and was able to pull straight up on the chain. So, it's not a matter of length but the allowed amount of travel. Remember, I'm trying to use a real Sturmey Archer replacement axle in a Steyr made Sears hub that looks identical inside, but obviously has some internal dimensions different. I can change rod lengths all day and it's still not going to let the axle key move any farther than it physically can... look at the exploded drawing on Sutherland's page and look at the two axles I have... I haven't given up yet but this arrangement isn't 100%

Carl.

Yeah, you're right that it's really about the indicator spindle rather than the indicator chain; I tend to think of those as a single unit. Maybe b/c that's how Sturmey sells them. I'm just wondering if a longer spindle might not help in your situation. It may not, though, as the slot is further from the fixed gear on the axle on the original axle, as opposed to the new axle where the slot is directly next to it...

 

[SILVERKINGPC]

Carl. I would NOT use that axle you have. The axle needs to be exactly the same or you will be tearing your hair out trying to get it to work, or you may damage the internals. I have some Sears hubs that I do not use, so if you need an axle for that hub, I can get one to you, I just have to find it. Those Sears / Sturmey hubs have the best clicking sounds of all the sturmey clones. Awesome running and sounding 3-spd hub IMO, but they did not make the coaster version. FYI, the broken axle was most likely from not putting it together properly. Been there, done that. And lastly, the axles come in a couple different lengths, and this length has nothing to do with the way you put it back together, and is just an option to fit different dropout widths using spacer nuts. You MUST have an exact replica of the axle you took out that mirrors the non-threaded portion of the axle....skpc

 

[Bicycle808]

Carl. I would NOT use that axle you have. The axle needs to be exactly the same or you will be tearing your hair out trying to get it to work, or you may damage the internals. I have some Sears hubs that I do not use, so if you need an axle for that hub, I can get one to you, I just have to find it. Those Sears / Sturmey hubs have the best clicking sounds of all the sturmey clones. Awesome running and sounding 3-spd hub IMO, but they did not make the coaster version. FYI, the broken axle was most likely from not putting it together properly. Been there, done that. And lastly, the axles come in a couple different lengths, and this length has nothing to do with the way you put it back together, and is just an option to fit different dropout widths using spacer nuts. You MUST have an exact replica of the axle you took out that mirrors the non-threaded portion of the axle....skpc

That's good to know...

 

[GuitarlCarl]

Carl. I would NOT use that axle you have. The axle needs to be exactly the same or you will be tearing your hair out trying to get it to work, or you may damage the internals. I have some Sears hubs that I do not use, so if you need an axle for that hub, I can get one to you, I just have to find it. Those Sears / Sturmey hubs have the best clicking sounds of all the sturmey clones. Awesome running and sounding 3-spd hub IMO, but they did not make the coaster version. FYI, the broken axle was most likely from not putting it together properly. Been there, done that. And lastly, the axles come in a couple different lengths, and this length has nothing to do with the way you put it back together, and is just an option to fit different dropout widths using spacer nuts. You MUST have an exact replica of the axle you took out that mirrors the non-threaded portion of the axle....skpc

Yes sir I am with you on that, it actually seems to work fine... as a 2 speed lol. The slot limits how far the key moves the clutch in the driver and with limited movement comes limited gears, 2 to be sure. I doubt it will hurt anything internally but it won't give me the third gear. I think you're right about the assembly being wrong, the tabbed washers were reversed from the exploded SA drawings.
So, brother if you can find an axle or a extra 503 hub let me know. I can paypal asap!
I'm stuck for now, waiting on spokes...

Carl.

 

[SILVERKINGPC]

GC. I will send you a pm when I get back home where I can dig you out an axle from my 3-spd stash and get it to you.. In the meantime, keep your eye on ebay for a donor Sears hub or an axle that matches. It may be one or two weeks before I can get to it though. I could start a new thread on how to break three speed hubs since I have made so many mistakes myself putting them together wrong then riding them.

 

[SILVERKINGPC]

There is one is pretty close on ebay..... I cant see the flats on the axle, but as you can see, it's nearly identical...

 

[GuitarlCarl]

There is one is pretty close on ebay..... I cant see the flats on the axle, but as you can see, it's nearly identical...

All I can find are SA axles, the one I have is a HSA 107...
can you give a link?

Carl.

 

[SILVERKINGPC]

Here ya go...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-VINTAGE...399205?hash=item4afeeb1565:g:jg8AAOSwBahVI1cS

It is a Sturmey axle, but if you look closely, it is the same configuration of your Sears axle & is most likely compatible. The key slot, shoulders and thread stops are exactly the same...It should work...Cheap too!!

 

[GuitarlCarl]

Here ya go...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-VINTAGE...399205?hash=item4afeeb1565:g:jg8AAOSwBahVI1cS

It is a Sturmey axle, but if you look closely, it is the same configuration of your Sears axle & is most likely compatible. The key slot, shoulders and thread stops are exactly the same...It should work...Cheap too!!

Yes sir! I pulled the trigger. It does look like it. Cool, I really want to lace the hub if the spokes show up. I ran the numbers thru the Sapim calculater and ordered them to fit. So I'm rolling on a two speed if it doesn't work BUT I have faith brother and thanx again!

Carl.

 

[SILVERKINGPC]

It'll work if the other one did.. I guarantee it.