What would you buy? and how much would you pay for it?

[TornadoDave3]

In another topic, we've been discussing the demise of Schwinn as a domestic manufacturer of bikes..... and whether or not there was room in the marketplace for a REAL american-made bike. I think there is... and actually there already ARE a number of American builders who cater to the higher-end market.

What I'm pondering is if there is a sizeable market for American made bikes in the middle price range.... similar to perhap Electra Bicycles, but with American-made frames of high quality.

So here is the question: What sort of bike would you like to see made here in the US? AND how much would you be willing to pay for it? Would you buy a Cruiser? A fixie? an English Racer 3 speed? A city bike? A classic steel road bike? If you could buy any style of bike, what would you purchase?

Our esteemed colleague Axsepul, has pointed out that there are so many talented people here at RRB that we could start our own company and build some very nice products. He is right. We could.... that would be easy to do. The real question is what do we build, and who do we sell it to?

I've been looking into this idea for several years now.... I think it might be time to do something.

 

[blackdiamond]

Check out worksman Cruisers still made in the USA and there bikes are literally bomb-proof..some a used as troop transprotation in Iraq...

And now they make a dutch/english style camelback...

Now they sell some chinese cruisers to fund there USA made bikes a somewhat smart idea...sort of.(those dont even say worksman on them tho)

http://www.worksman.com

 

[blackdiamond]

Our esteemed colleague Axsepul, has pointed out that there are so many talented people here at RRB that we could start our own company and build some very nice products. He is right. We could.... that would be easy to do. The real question is what do we build, and who do we sell it to?

I've been looking into this idea for several years now.... I think it might be time to do something.

i think Greg66? allready makes custom frames..the roth bikes...

And with all the talent and creativeness of the people on this site, and the fact the site is visited by 1000's of guests RRB could recleim the american market.....and one big problem with the USA is most people have no bike...

a sad thought ...the bicycle was invented in germany..when was the last time anyone seen a german bike?

 

[TornadoDave3]

Actually.... I know Worksman quite well, and have talked to them about selling me bare framesets. AND I know there are a number of higher-end bike builders.

BUT.... 86% of all bikes sold in the country are Chinese made, and none of the builders that I know of have actually tried to compete in the middle-ground marketplace except for Worksman with their Crusiers. Unfortunately, Cruisers only make up less than 15% of the American market.... and they tend to be the lower end. Thus in the crusier market, it might be tough to beat the Chinese.

In the other markets, I'm not so sure..... and that's what I'm looking into.

 

[blackdiamond]

if worksman would make it a 21-speed and added mtb tire they could get in the mtb market...

 

[user 135]

These Worksman's can be had with a 3 or 7 speed hub. A heavy commuter but still a functional town bike.
http://worksmancycles.com/shopsite_sc/s ... age63.html

 

[expjawa]

To answer the original question - what would I buy? Well, non-helpful answer is that I'm interested in a lot of different aspects of biking, and would interested in seeing a company that offers a range of products from off-road to cruiser to commuter to race bikes. That doesn't particularly narrow it down for you.

However, the simplest answer is to tell you what I'm in the market for currently. As I described in the Schwinn thread, I've been shopping for a commuter/performance hybrid type bike. Really, what I'm looking for is something that I can use for exercise and general recreation, on paved roads, stone dust trails, etc. I currently have a mountain bike that I've adapter for road use. But that's like buying a Jeep as a daily commuter - certainly feasible, but not the best suited. I'd like to convert that back to a mountain bike for off-road use.

While I have a number of cruisers and vintage "lightweights" that I can ride on-road, what I want is something that would be my primary bike for long rides and daily use, and the older bikes would be for more special interest riding. So, it would be lighter, adept at pavement use, but not so specfic that it can't handle crushed gravel and stonedust surfaces (which are real popular around here for bike paths). I want something faster and more efficient than the typical old fart hybrid. Basically, something closely related to road bike without drop bars or super-skinny tires.

I've looked at Trek FX, Kona Dew, Jamis Coda, Raleigh Cadent, Diamondback Insight, so I'm squarely in that mid-level price point. The bikes I'm looking at are in the $600- 800 range. I'm leaning heavily at the moment toward the Kona Dew Deluxe. But if there was an American company making bikes with American-made frames that had a competitive product in that type of segment, I'd consider that highly. So that's my long answer to what seems like a simple question...

 

[Rat Rod]

I think Worksman is able to still pull it off in the U.S. because their target market is manufacturing facilities. The sell hundreds of bikes at a time.

I think you'd have to have some serious start up capital to get into the bike manufacturing business, especially if you're wanting to mass market them.

I know it sound pessimistic, but there's a reason why all of these companies build their bikes overseas these days...they want to stay in business.

 

[ifitsfreeitsforme]

this is sort of contrary to what attracts people to this forum... "built, not bought". no?

 

[expjawa]

this is sort of contrary to what attracts people to this forum... "built, not bought". no?

No, not really. He's not talking about mass-building rat rod bikes; I think he's more curious as to what sort of new bike appeals to bicycle enthusiasts at large. Can you think of a better place to find a group of bike enthusiasts than here?

 

[MIGZ]

Unfortunately I believe it would be very difficult. Main reason for this is that its would be very difficult compete in the current market.

Most of the hand bulit stuff here in the us is in the thousands of dollars.
Average retail price for a bicycle is about 50% margin.
Component technology changes about as fast a computer technology. (no one wants to buy old technology)

keeping those things in mind and the fact that most bikes frames are made and assemble by the same factory in Taiwan so most companies don't own their own tooling or manufacturing. It will cost a ton to get machines.

One option is sub out your design to worksman might be your only chance.

 

[TornadoDave3]

Believe me.... I understand the difficulties of manufacturing in the US given the current economy and competition from China. In fact, I've studied the marketplace very closely for several years, and ... I'm not of the defeatist opinion that some folks seem to have. I've already costed out the capitol requirements, market segments, and the current state of the industry. AND this would not be my first venture into manufacturing. I'm actually quite good at it.

In the book "The Wind and the Lion" about Teddy Roosevelt's intervention in Morroco in 1904, the ambassador is told that it's impossible to build a railroad in the Sahara.... nobody could ever do it. He ponders this for a second, and then says "We can. We are Americans. We have men who can do anything. We have men who can FLY!" That is how I'm going to approach things. We are Americans. We can do anything. The only real problem is figuring out HOW to do it. I'm not interested in hearing what can't be done.

What i AM interested in is what you guys would LIKE to see in the marketplace. If you were going to buy a bike, what kind of bike would it be? YOU are the American buying public.... and understanding what you'd like to be riding would be very helpful.

 

[TornadoDave3]

So... Migz..... you are partly right. Custom bikes cost $1500.... and that's too costly for most folks. AND the margin for mass-retailer is indeed 50%. However, the median price for bikes is approx $450. Most folks can afford $450. (That's the price of an Electra Townie.... and they sell the heck out of Townies.) So IF we were to market directly to the customer and not go through retailers, we could build a bike that would normally retail for $900 and sell it for the median price.... now couldn't we?

Of course that's a rough way to look at it..... but you get my point. I just can't buy the "It's impossible to compete with the chinese" line of un-American BS. Of course we can build a better bike.

 

[Rat Rod]

I'm no expert on the subject, but if a majority of the bike companies out there are having their bikes built oversees at low cost, how can you expect to compete with the quantity that they can produce as well as the variety? It seems like part of the goal with a venture like this is to get your name and product everywhere so that it becomes recognizable. If you're wanting to become a well known nationwide bicycle manufacturer, it seems like you'd need to be in tons of bike stores all over the country. Maybe that isn't what your talking about here though.

I was thinking about the question you posed...what would you buy and at what price? It seems like just about every style of bike that I can think of can be bought at a reasonable price already. These juggernauts like Trek, Specialized, Giant, Raleigh all seem to offer just about every style of bike you could want at several different price points.

If I'm a consumer looking to buy a new bike and I'm familiar with all of the major brands and go to a bike shop, will I buy from one company over another due to where the bike is built or will I go with the brand I trust the most? Seems like there's more to the picture here than product origin like history, quality perception, warranty, service, etc.

If you've got the funds, the know how and the desire then I say give it a try. :wink:

 

[MIGZ]

Believe me.... I understand the difficulties of manufacturing in the US given the current economy and competition from China. In fact, I've studied the marketplace very closely for several years, and ... I'm not of the defeatist opinion that some folks seem to have. I've already costed out the capitol requirements, market segments, and the current state of the industry. AND this would not be my first venture into manufacturing. I'm actually quite good at it.

In the book "The Wind and the Lion" about Teddy Roosevelt's intervention in Morroco in 1904, the ambassador is told that it's impossible to build a railroad in the Sahara.... nobody could ever do it. He ponders this for a second, and then says "We can. We are Americans. We have men who can do anything. We have men who can FLY!" That is how I'm going to approach things. We are Americans. We can do anything. The only real problem is figuring out HOW to do it. I'm not interested in hearing what can't be done.

What i AM interested in is what you guys would LIKE to see in the marketplace. If you were going to buy a bike, what kind of bike would it be? YOU are the American buying public.... and understanding what you'd like to be riding would be very helpful.

I completely understand your point, and by no means am i trying to talk you out of it. I am just stating the reality I experience in my day to day. I work for a major global engineering manufacturing company with manufacturing facilities in the UK, Asia, Brazil, Africa and the US. Our highest level of quality issues are in the US, the local manufacturing market is not the same it once was. We have to come to the realization we are not the manufacturing power we once were as we started to shift work over seas we have helped other nations get much better at manufacturing than we have been able to keep up. We can still engineer and design but we just flat out suck at manufacturing now days.

Quality escapes cost a ton of money to companies building things here in the US when the happen you have to cover that cost in the price of your product.


Now to answer your question" what would i buy" I would but a product from a company that I persieve will be around to support the product long after the purchase.

 

[Hoyt]

The original question is what would I buy & what would I pay. I never owned a brand new bike myself, but I have bought them for my kids. I would like to see affordable (under $100 closer to $50) kids bikes built solid and bigger adult sized bikes built solid (between $100 and $150). That is the price range that Walmart offers but not the quality. There are companies out there that offer Quality bikes for bike enthusiasts , but the price is too high for casual riders. I am not aware of a company that makes quality bikes at low prices. I am not willing to pay more than what Walmart charges for a bike for a kid that wants a bike (and all kids should have a bike), but won't take care of it. I ride a Huffy Crankbrock that I modified slightly and it works alright, mostly because it is a single speed with coaster brakes. My stepdaughter's dad bought her a Walmart Roadmaster MTN bike, that has shifters and brakes all made cheaply, lucky for her I can replace them with better parts. My advise, if you start a company making bikes, keep the design simple and affordable with quality parts. Most people buy Walmart bikes because that's all they can afford and don't know how to fix up a used bike of better quality.

 

[TornadoDave3]

Hoyt.... I hear what you are saying. For casual riding, you are looking at the price vs quality.... and the economics of it point you toward simple at a lower price, but you'd still like something better than Chino-junk.

I can tell you that at the $150 price bracket, it would be very difficult to beat the Chinese. BUT thanks for your input. It's very helpful.

 

[gowjobs]

Okay, I'll play.

I'd be interested in a multi-use platform. Something that could serve as a singlespeed urban/light trail bike, a multi-speed (in-hub) commuter, or even a cruiser, depending on how it was optioned out/outfitted.

Give it just enough rear chainstay space to jam a 7-speed cluster in there (125-130mm), and you retain the option of adding a derailleur.
Slack seatpost angle allows for greater range of adjustabilty for rider size.
MTB-esque headtube angle makes it nimble with a standard fork, and more stable with a suspension fork mounted (1-1/8" threadless makes it easy for end-user or dealer upgrades)
Sloping or camelback top tube may help standover height
Longer chainstays 17"+ make it stable at speed, and keep the front end planted in the corners
Aluminum frame construction would keep it light, and I would hope might be cheaper domestically than seamless DOM Cro-Mo, but higher quality than mild steel.

The comfort/city bike segment is really growing, and it attaracts many of the same folks that would really appreciate a U.S.-made frameset.
Put the money where it counts when it comes to componentry. No HiStop hubs. Three-piece cranks only with sealed cartridge BB's, but don't worry so much about using a high-end headset (how much do you REALLY turn your bars compared to your wheels and cranks?).

By building a multi-use frameset, you open up a world of possibilities to your customers, and reduce the different sku's you have to manufacture/inventory to build bikes.

My opinion: Build a simple, quality frameset that will last the customer for years, and will grow/change with his/her needs, and people will spread the word.

Oh yeah - Sell a singlespeed/fixie or CB for $499, and go up from there, depending on the componentry.

 

[R1FIGHTER]

I really need to chime in.

Would you pay $129.99 at walmart for a chinese bike or $189.99 for a bike at lets say a sligtly better quality to feed your neighbors kids?

It's odd that i found this tread today. I've been thinking hard about opening bike shop here in detroit and today it occured to me that we have the infrastructure to manufacture bicycles. We'd just have to fight to keep the unions out. Think about it...

Detroit Bicycles.

 

[Rat Rod]

So who's making the $189.99 bike?