wierd headset tribulations

[Bicycle808]

I don't really expect any kind of constructive advice here, as i'm pretty sure i can live with my end results here, but i need to vent, and i'm wondering if anyone has experienced anything similar in their builds recently. The following is really boring, with lots of specs in mm and stuff, so if you think you'll hate it, click "back" on your browser, and i'm sorry.

I have a worksman INB, and i wanted to swap out the YST headset. I realize that the old-standard american 1" headsets are different than the more common modern 1" headsets of today, so i got something with a 32.7mm O.D. for the cups, and with a 26.4mm crown-race, as i had thought that was the standard, BITD. Thing is, the worksman fork has a 27.0mm crown-race seat, and i had guessed that the new worksman forks have the 27.0mm forks b/c they better jive with the chinese headsets. The new INB fork is horrifically ugly and designed for use with the worksman front drum, so i successfully hunted down one of the old sloping-crown lugged forks from the older worksman INB. (Thanks to forum member ind-chuckz!) This is an older fork, so i figured it MUST accept the 26.4mm crown race, but it doesn't. weird, but i set the fork aside for a future project, and got a bmx-style 26" fork from a schwinn sidewinder. Surely this must fit, right? Well, the 26.4 crown race fit perfectly, but the spacing on the fork ends are for the ultra-old school 90mm front hubs. I modified my sturmey-archer x-fd hub by removing a washer and was able to squeeze it in there, and i think it'll work fine... I figured i was on my way, so...

I remove the original headset from the worksman frame, and when i go to press the new headset in, the cups just drop right in. I was stunned. I wondered if i had the road-style headset, but i didn't. I tried again, with the headset that came off the sidewinder. This, too, dropped right in. I mean, loosely. no press needed.

So, i just put the original headset back on, and this remains snug. I looked into it, and the YST cruiser/bmx size headset cups are said to be 32.5mm OD. I don't understand why so many forks out there for american-style cruisers have the antiquated Japanese Industrial Standard standard 27.0 crown race. Even more puzzling, why didn't the 32.7mm cups fit snugly in my worksman's headtube?


Thanks,
-rob

ps- schwinn sidewinder forks look pretty sick on the worksman.

 

[Bendix]

time for a wald 4080 headset?
(larger cup diameter than schwinn/bmx)

27.0 crown races do indeed have a way of turning up when you least expect them..... :wink:

 

[Bicycle808]

time for a wald 4080 headset?
(larger cup diameter than schwinn/bmx)

27.0 crown races do indeed have a way of turning up when you least expect them..... :wink:

I don't know if i trust the 4080, with those 3 little nubs. doesn't that result in a gap? I don't know if that'd be an "upgrade" from the YST. I love a lot of Wald's products, but that headset gives me the heebie-jeebies.

-rob

 

[Bicycle808]

i'm mostly confounded how one headset that's supposed to be 32.5mm is bigger than 2 which're supposed to be 32.7? thanks for the reply, btw. i'm trying to overcome my frustration.

-rob

 

[Bendix]

time for a wald 4080 headset?
(larger cup diameter than schwinn/bmx)

27.0 crown races do indeed have a way of turning up when you least expect them..... :wink:

I don't know if i trust the 4080, with those 3 little nubs. doesn't that result in a gap? I don't know if that'd be an "upgrade" from the YST. I love a lot of Wald's products, but that headset gives me the heebie-jeebies.

-rob

if those cups worry you wait 'til you see the crown race! :shock: i only mention it because for a lot of rrb folks in your dimensional situation the wald is their only option. if your yst is still ok i'm sure it's a better unit. i realize that's not saying much...... :mrgreen:

 

[Phil Fink]

I also have a Worksman Industrial NewsBoy (INB) frame, without original 1" forks or headset. I purchased SunLite economy forks with 27mm race. I measured the head tube at 33mm, forgot to write it down or mis-figured that 32.7 was the closest thing, and then purchased a 32.5mm and a Wald 4080 (with a YST top nut). Maybe I measured wrong, (it was not close to 34mm), but the ugly Wald headset will fit due to its 3-knobules and the 32.5 was too small, off by only ~0.5 mm. Maybe 0.05mm might be better for press fit(?).

 

[Bicycle808]

I also have a Worksman Industrial NewsBoy (INB) frame, without original 1" forks or headset. I purchased SunLite economy forks with 27mm race. I measured the head tube at 33mm, forgot to write it down or mis-figured that 32.7 was the closest thing, and then purchased a 32.5mm and a Wald 4080 (with a YST top nut). Maybe I measured wrong, (it was not close to 34mm), but the ugly Wald headset will fit due to its 3-knobules and the 32.5 was too small, off by only ~0.5 mm. Maybe 0.05mm might be better for press fit(?).

A lot has happened since I posted this topic back in 2011. I've since fit a Chris King "BMX" threaded headset in that first Worksman, and I've got something like 12 oem Worksman headsets in the parts bin or on various INB or LGB projects. I've also got a 1.125" threadless conversion going, running the original cups. In the end, though, what I suggest for folks with an INB and the new-style tubular forks is to run the oem cups and this headset:
http://porkchopbmx.com/VP-H755-BMX-bicycle-headset-1-threaded-w-325mm-cups-CHROME-HSIMVP-755.htm
The VP takes the same bearings as the Worksman OEM and it even features the adjustable cone with the flats for a headset wrench--- if you have on older Akisu- or Naniwa-built fork on your Worksman, there's not enough threads for the VP's increased stack height, but new forks and aftermarket forks work fine with it. If you need some OEM cups, I can send you some for the cost of shipping but otherwise, yes, the Wald cups fit, and they take the same bearings too, so you can run a YST or VP bmx/cruiser-size headset in the Wald cups if ya want....

HTH
-Rob

 

[Bicycle808]

PS- Porkchop sells the 27.0 mm crown races a-la carte, too. Will work with all the headsets in my post above, except the King. http://porkchopbmx.com/Bicycle-Headset-Fork-Crown-Race-for-VP-H755-headset-270mm-HSIMH755CR-270.htm

 

[rev106]

Ahh the headset game....Thanks for playing~ There are 4 different 1" threaded headsets out there as far as I know. It's a pain.

 

[Bicycle808]

Ahh the headset game....Thanks for playing~ There are 4 different 1" threaded headsets out there as far as I know. It's a pain.

If only there were only 4. You got ISO, JIS, the Schwinn size/"BMX", bigger ones like Worksman, even bigger than that like old Murray, plus the old Italian/Campy sizes which were normal size and tpi, but with the threads cut at different angles, plus of course the Nottingham/Raliegh 26tpi jawns (on Nottingham-built Brit bkes, but also on some Indian and Chinese Raleigh clones), and the French metric set-up with the 1" steerer but the 1mm threads. And that's just ones that i've worked on; i've read that there are older East German/Austrian standards, with oversize cups and weird thread pitch, but i ain't ever seen any in-person. I'd bet anything that all the 19th century bikes had some pretty much proprietary set-ups, too. It's a complete PITA

 

[rev106]

Yeah I meant I've seen 4 different head tub sizes for the same type of fork. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Bendix]

And the newest crop of road/mtb headsets is adding many more non-standard 'standards' !

 

[Bicycle808]

Yeah I meant I've seen 4 different head tub sizes for the same type of fork. Sorry for the confusion.

Ha, yeah, and once you take into consideration the crown race seat.... i've seen plenty of bikes that came from the factory with ISO cups (30.2) with JIS crown races (27.0). It's enough to drive one insane.

And the newest crop of road/mtb headsets is adding many more non-standard 'standards' !

Indeed. All that ish just makes my head hurt. Even Surly, the guys who swore they'd be "parts-box friendly" forever, they're offering a few frames with EC44 headtubes... My first reaction was to cuss them out for it, but then I realized that, with the new batch of suspension forks, they basically HAD to go EC44 in order to survive. It's frustrating, b/c some of this stuff is driven by innovation; extreme riders have been killing headtubes, steerers, and especially lower bearings for a while.... but most of it seems to be driven by planned obsolescence, which is one of those things that just gets my blood to boiling in almost any situation.

 

[rev106]

Well yea. The thing is that most people don't know or care but all the differences just confuse them and make them not want to ride bikes. I penned a rant once long ago and posted it on mtbr, it made people send me hate mail .

Dear Bike Industry,



I’m beginning to feel that you don’t have myself and my fellow rider’s best interest at heart, all you seem to be interested in is creating new “standards” and try to force people to buy them under the auspice that the new “standard” is better than before. I would like to think that most cyclists are a savvy bunch, but we do glom onto new tech with eagerness, a fault that you (the bicycle industry) seems more than happy to exploit.

Every year there’s a new bottom bracket “standard”. Something becomes a standard once it is in wide, common, and accepted use like a square taper bb. I have never felt the need to put any of these new, false standards on my bike instead of using a tried and true standard. I think you need to think about how you label all of these pointless bottom bracket options out there. The advantages are nominal to the rider, and only serve to create more niche markets and confuse new riders that get overwhelmed by all the “standards” that have been made. Shame on you. The people that can really gain any benefit if at all from any of these alleged improvements are pro racers, and pro races get their bikes and parts for free, we, the majority of the bike buying public have to pay for our stuff. Did my square tape bb suddenly stop working after years of loyal service and 1000’s of miles? No, it did not. My mountain bike is old for sure and my friends that have newer bikes are still behind me just like they are before they had a new bike with all of the new “improvements” in technology, I expected them to leave me in the dust being that I have only 21 speeds and they 30, but alas it did not happen. I also find it funny that I having 21 speeds never once thought I could make this traverse or climb that section of trail if I only had some more gears, and now you try and sell me less gears in the form of a 2 x10 drive train for more money than my 21 gears, do you take me for a fool? Shame on you bike industry. I can go on, how lame and pointless 31.8 bars are and how ugly they look, or how a 200 dollar seat post that drops can’t beat a 10 buck quick release seat post clamp and to take the 10 seconds to take in the view before you drop in is worth way more than another lever do-hickey on your bike, are you really that lazy? And the 29 wheels, really? Every time I see some poor 5.5” guy on a 29er, I just feel like the bike industry is made up of carneys and we are it’s willing dupes. And these massive head tube bearings they look like the wheel bearings in my van, there’s no way you can convince me I “need” that junk. At some point I just feel like you think I’m an idiot they will buy anything that you put before me, I think you think so little of us as a group that one can keep changing things endlessly chasing one’s tail in the pointless quest of improving something that needs no improvement, even the bike magazines are getting weary of your cavalcade of falsehoods, they are usually your ever loyal heralds but that is even changing.

I turned away from mountain biking magazines for few years and when I came back, mountain bikes no longer existed. There are xc, all mountain, free ride, downhill, etc. but there are no “mountain bikes” anymore. I still own and use a mountain bike, I understand that by creating labels and slicing the pie in ever-smaller slices you can perhaps sucker someone into buying a bunch of bikes that only get used for one type of trail. I guess that’s clever marketing and sales go up, but I think in doing so you alienate the beginner that will certainly be confused and intimidated by all the jargon and techo-babble when they go to their local shop and want a “mountain bike” Shame on you bike industry, I think you need a time-out to think about what you’ve done.

 

[jamesdart]

now that is funny

 

[SILVERKINGPC]

I will chime in here, and agree with Rev106. It is really dumb isn't it? The industry was(is) still trying to get rid of the threaded BB shell, and is meeting fierce resistance from all shops. Even IBIS went back to threaded after loyal customers complained vehemently. Personally, I can't tell the difference in stiffness between axle qr skewers and the new thru-axles, yet that's all you can get in high-end frames & Forks. I also can't tell the difference in Fork leg diameters(stiffness) either but they are going free-ride crazy and getting heavier and overdone still. Same goes for bar diameters and headset oversizing... As for wheel sizes, I still ride 26(fat) and like Rev106, don't seem to have any trouble staying in front of my buddies on their heavy and fancy single-ring 29ers going down or up. Its the rider, not the bike....IMO, these meaningless changes just force people to buy the new stuff (frames/forks/complete bikes), instead of good components, which hurts new bike sales. My favorite pastime is passing a group of riders on $6,000 carbon road bikes on my only road bike shown below. They must and always will chase in the end...

 

[Bicycle808]

i remember reading this a few years back; i agreed then, but it's even more of a problem today.

I do have to admit that the compatibility issues with 1" threaded headsets/forks/stems seemed to be more of a problem with regional standards crossing folks up as imports/exports spread those different standards across the globe. Obviously, that's not what's going on now, where we're pretty much globalized in terms of markets, with almost all of the production clustered in one corner of the world. No, the new standards are far more insidious, b/c they were born of planned obsolescence, rather than idiosyncrasies in France, the US, the UK, or the Far East.

Well yea. The thing is that most people don't know or care but all the differences just confuse them and make them not want to ride bikes. I penned a rant once long ago and posted it on mtbr, it made people send me hate mail .

Dear Bike Industry,



I’m beginning to feel that you don’t have myself and my fellow rider’s best interest at heart, all you seem to be interested in is creating new “standards” and try to force people to buy them under the auspice that the new “standard” is better than before. I would like to think that most cyclists are a savvy bunch, but we do glom onto new tech with eagerness, a fault that you (the bicycle industry) seems more than happy to exploit.

Every year there’s a new bottom bracket “standard”. Something becomes a standard once it is in wide, common, and accepted use like a square taper bb. I have never felt the need to put any of these new, false standards on my bike instead of using a tried and true standard. I think you need to think about how you label all of these pointless bottom bracket options out there. The advantages are nominal to the rider, and only serve to create more niche markets and confuse new riders that get overwhelmed by all the “standards” that have been made. Shame on you. The people that can really gain any benefit if at all from any of these alleged improvements are pro racers, and pro races get their bikes and parts for free, we, the majority of the bike buying public have to pay for our stuff. Did my square tape bb suddenly stop working after years of loyal service and 1000’s of miles? No, it did not. My mountain bike is old for sure and my friends that have newer bikes are still behind me just like they are before they had a new bike with all of the new “improvements” in technology, I expected them to leave me in the dust being that I have only 21 speeds and they 30, but alas it did not happen. I also find it funny that I having 21 speeds never once thought I could make this traverse or climb that section of trail if I only had some more gears, and now you try and sell me less gears in the form of a 2 x10 drive train for more money than my 21 gears, do you take me for a fool? Shame on you bike industry. I can go on, how lame and pointless 31.8 bars are and how ugly they look, or how a 200 dollar seat post that drops can’t beat a 10 buck quick release seat post clamp and to take the 10 seconds to take in the view before you drop in is worth way more than another lever do-hickey on your bike, are you really that lazy? And the 29 wheels, really? Every time I see some poor 5.5” guy on a 29er, I just feel like the bike industry is made up of carneys and we are it’s willing dupes. And these massive head tube bearings they look like the wheel bearings in my van, there’s no way you can convince me I “need” that junk. At some point I just feel like you think I’m an idiot they will buy anything that you put before me, I think you think so little of us as a group that one can keep changing things endlessly chasing one’s tail in the pointless quest of improving something that needs no improvement, even the bike magazines are getting weary of your cavalcade of falsehoods, they are usually your ever loyal heralds but that is even changing.

I turned away from mountain biking magazines for few years and when I came back, mountain bikes no longer existed. There are xc, all mountain, free ride, downhill, etc. but there are no “mountain bikes” anymore. I still own and use a mountain bike, I understand that by creating labels and slicing the pie in ever-smaller slices you can perhaps sucker someone into buying a bunch of bikes that only get used for one type of trail. I guess that’s clever marketing and sales go up, but I think in doing so you alienate the beginner that will certainly be confused and intimidated by all the jargon and techo-babble when they go to their local shop and want a “mountain bike” Shame on you bike industry, I think you need a time-out to think about what you’ve done.

 

[rev106]

Yep, passing any carbon bike on one of my klunkers is just plain rad!