In what way John? I am eager to learn
I'm taking you guys along on the journey:
I just contacted a brazing company if they are willing to braze a frame I have got and learn me the details and tooling that are involved with brazing.
"Building a welding JIG first" - design process and thoughts
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I'm taking you guys along on the journey:
I just contacted a brazing company if they are willing to braze a frame I have got and learn me the details and tooling that are involved with brazing.
One of the biggest improvements for the HF roller (usually from SWAG offroad) is widening the bottom two rollers, which helps with larger OD tubing (1.5-2.0') as the narrow rollers as HF stock don't have very effective leverage. Having different slots to use should help with that as well as with creating different radii of curves.
The down pressing screw powered by a two-handed crank vs. a 3/4' wrench will help with leverage. (SWAG offers a mod that allows a hydraulic bottle jack, FWIW.)
The gauge to show you how far down you've moved the top roller will help with repeatability. I've been marking the screw with sharpie on my HF roller.
The crank handle instead of the ship's wheel has to be better, if for no other reason than storage, but it looks like it is keyed instead of held with a set screw on flats (one of the weakest points with the HF set.)
Yes, SWAG has a lot of upgrades that can make the HF roller quite good, and a variety of dies that work with their upgraded arbor/axle (?), but the dies from HF are pretty low quality and only 3 sized (1", 1-1/2", 2").
The set screws are just a bad design.
Searching a pic of the HF roller, I saw a Grizzly Industries version that looks similar to yours, though lacks the gauge and the crank handle attachment looks different.
and at the current price of $549 USD, is a better deal than the HF roller with upgrades, esp considering the cost of the SWAG dies, --- but I haven't looked into the cost of this machine's dies or the weaknesses or flaws. --- but I will look into them and may be tempted to change course depending on what I find.
edit... there seems to be a simplicity and ACCESSIBILITY to the lower dies that far outshines the HF. They are a pain to change. The top one is too. And lining up the set screws to the axle flats...
edit 2: ... and see how your's and the Grizzly have a flange that can be clamped or screwed down to a bench for stability? hmmmm...
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I see what you mean and the points you mentioned there.
The HF roller indeed has the rollers quite close together. thought the wheel was quite handy, but you mentioning the 'handcrank' on my roller in regards to storage, I get it
And thanks for showing me the Grizzly roller. I decided to search it on the interwebs and I found out that Grizzly sells exactly the same machine. The Grizzly 60mm pipe bender is a match on my machine.
Mine is from HBM-machines .
- The Grizzly website instantly gives options for more rollers to buy. While I contacted my supplier, HBM and they said they don't have rollers available... Rollers are hard to find in my country.
- The Grizzly machinery is a 1:1 match with some machines in webshops in my country. Just a different colour coating.
I also contacted a lot of machine shops that sell bending machines:
HBM bending machine link
Grizzly bending machine link
(almost the same, at least same design)
Only thing is: Many shops don't know if their machines are for tubes or pipes.
Sometimes you can see a picture of the casing of the machine that says 'pipe bender'.
There is a significant difference: Pipes are measured from the inside and Tubes are measured from the outside.
A few comments back, you mentioned limiting your tubing sizes, in order to be able to limit necessary tooling. I very much have done this. I have a very nice bender now that I purchased only in 7/8", so that now all of my bars and stays are always in that size. I can do more variety on the roller, as I have dies for 1", 1 1/4", and 1 1/2".
Thank you Deven
I noted the same thing: 22mm / 7/8" for the stays. Also possible for bars.
I promise I won't copy your builds
Hmm. I can't find any Dutch company that is able to get rolls / dies for the roller.
I contacted Grizzly (thanks for that tip @SkyknightJohn !!) and they are happy to sell them to me, just not ship it to the Netherlands.
Hmm, one way or another, I'm aquiring rollers for the machine
More updates:
The Electra Ratrod:
Cut here (after proper measurements)
Original looks.
A few measurements how much the seat will drop, depending on how much I will lenghten the frame.
800-something millimeter is the centre of the BB to the top of the seat.
The horizontal measurements are the lengths from the seat straight down to the BB.
You can see here if I lengthen the frame 150mm, the seat will drop 108mm. I think the bike looks pretty different after such a customization.
I'll have to see if the modification looks good with the curved top tube.
I contacted Grizzly (thanks for that tip @SkyknightJohn !!) and they are happy to sell them to me, just not ship it to the Netherlands.
Hmm, one way or another, I'm aquiring rollers for the machine
More updates:
- I sold a few bikes on marketplace and got a new network in bike-land. Selling projects is hard, but necessary for the money and space right now.
- I disassembled my first project for the welding jig: Electra Ratrod. I will lengthen it. I will decide the length when the frame is in the JIG. Great first learning project.
- The JIG is in my shed right now. I'll have to think about practicality: How work work with limited space and utilize some clever solutions.
The Electra Ratrod:
Cut here (after proper measurements)
Original looks.
A few measurements how much the seat will drop, depending on how much I will lenghten the frame.
800-something millimeter is the centre of the BB to the top of the seat.
The horizontal measurements are the lengths from the seat straight down to the BB.
You can see here if I lengthen the frame 150mm, the seat will drop 108mm. I think the bike looks pretty different after such a customization.
I'll have to see if the modification looks good with the curved top tube.
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Little detail update:
Coasterbrakes are usually 110mm or so in width.
Most hubs are between 110mm and 135mm, so I decided to keep the 'dropout clamps' easy to modulate with large thick washers:
128mm right now. But I can switch the washer and bush easily.
I might be a cool adaptation to 'quick release' in the future. This way the dropouts won't tilt or move when I tighten a nut. We'll see what works.
First parts in the shop!
Coasterbrakes are usually 110mm or so in width.
Most hubs are between 110mm and 135mm, so I decided to keep the 'dropout clamps' easy to modulate with large thick washers:
128mm right now. But I can switch the washer and bush easily.
I might be a cool adaptation to 'quick release' in the future. This way the dropouts won't tilt or move when I tighten a nut. We'll see what works.
First parts in the shop!
A 'little research' update:
(Yes, Ratrodbikes forum is also my notebook)
Most 'custom cruiser' frames are relatively heavy and made out of 'mild steel'.
When thinking about mild steel I thought of S335 / st52 (1.0577).
But when I started looking for tube suppliers, starting with the biggest, this 'abovementioned' steel type is not available in a thin wall of 1 or 1,5mm.
Note: this is incredibly thick compared to modern mountainbikes and race bikes
I do not have any issues with a heavier frame.
The only tubes that come in these 'thinner walled' sizes are:
S235 / st37 (1.0037). Its a cheap construction steel found in every shop
I have access to the more expensive CroMo tubing or '25CrMo4'.
Frames will be significantly tougher to damage or deform.
I might combine both materials from time to time depending on:
Lasercut or milled dropouts are made from S355 / st52 (1.0577).
Some frames are made out of Hi-tensile steel. But I can't find any suppliers for this. And I'm not looking for Reynolds of Columbus tubing
I'll keep on digging and learning, thank you for reading and/or reacting!
(Yes, Ratrodbikes forum is also my notebook)
Most 'custom cruiser' frames are relatively heavy and made out of 'mild steel'.
When thinking about mild steel I thought of S335 / st52 (1.0577).
But when I started looking for tube suppliers, starting with the biggest, this 'abovementioned' steel type is not available in a thin wall of 1 or 1,5mm.
Note: this is incredibly thick compared to modern mountainbikes and race bikes
I do not have any issues with a heavier frame.The only tubes that come in these 'thinner walled' sizes are:
S235 / st37 (1.0037). Its a cheap construction steel found in every shop
I have access to the more expensive CroMo tubing or '25CrMo4'.
Frames will be significantly tougher to damage or deform.
I might combine both materials from time to time depending on:
- Bending experience
- Cost
- Frame type (cruisers do not get abused that much. Klunkers on the other hand...)
Lasercut or milled dropouts are made from S355 / st52 (1.0577).
Some frames are made out of Hi-tensile steel. But I can't find any suppliers for this. And I'm not looking for Reynolds of Columbus tubing
I'll keep on digging and learning, thank you for reading and/or reacting!
MattiThundrrr
Rattus All Terrainus
You may want to look at the workability of your steel. Will the heat treatment of your chromoly make it more resistant to bending?
Thanks for thinking along Matti.
Chromoly has very similar characteristics in regards to steel.
Brazing really helps when you have these very thin "xx butted" tubes from Reynolds or Columbus. Then the heat induced into the material is much less, cause less tensions in the material.
With 'regular tubing' its not such a big issue
The Electra Ratrod frame is in!
Last photo: alignment is off. Is it the bracket or the frame? We'll find out in the next episode!
I ordered a tubing bender. A cheap-ish one first.
There are cheap benders in my country and professional, very expensive benders that go 1k and up. Nothing in between.
I chose this bender since it had multiple dies, so I have the option to fabricate racks/carriers as well. I saw some youtube videos of people bending incredible stuff with this thing. 25x2.0mm stainless steel.
And I want to fix my ridgid 358 bender. It was 800 bucks (many years ago) and a new handle is 100+ bucks.
I'll try and fix that thing first.
There are cheap benders in my country and professional, very expensive benders that go 1k and up. Nothing in between.
I chose this bender since it had multiple dies, so I have the option to fabricate racks/carriers as well. I saw some youtube videos of people bending incredible stuff with this thing. 25x2.0mm stainless steel.
And I want to fix my ridgid 358 bender. It was 800 bucks (many years ago) and a new handle is 100+ bucks.
I'll try and fix that thing first.
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Not typical for a Ridgid tool to break like that. Maybe someone tried
to bend something solid perhaps. Might be a poor casting too.
to bend something solid perhaps. Might be a poor casting too.
The Ridgid bender you have is only design to bend copper tubing.
Update:
A supplier from the Netherlands called me and said they have rollers for my machine.
The rollers are made from a hard plastic. I'm o.k. accepting it, but I feel skeptical about plastic.
Thinking out loud:
The tube rolling machine is not a bender. The arches that I roll with the roller are not made with a lot of stress in mind.
I will think about that.
A supplier from the Netherlands called me and said they have rollers for my machine.
The rollers are made from a hard plastic. I'm o.k. accepting it, but I feel skeptical about plastic.
Thinking out loud:
The tube rolling machine is not a bender. The arches that I roll with the roller are not made with a lot of stress in mind.
I will think about that.
Bending machine arrived! I did some research before buying it. Saw some youtube video's of people (ab)using thing thing.
This thing is beefy. It has multiple dies that come with it.
It is affordable and enough for me to start bending up to 25mm tubing.
This thing is beefy. It has multiple dies that come with it.
It is affordable and enough for me to start bending up to 25mm tubing.
Link?
Grizzly Bender link
Above is the Grizzly bender link. Grizzly, like many suppliers have square dies. My dies are all for round tubing; 10mm to 25mm.
Above, in this top video, the guy is bending 25mm (1") 2mm thick stainless tube. That is about the max this bender can go.
I wonder what CroMoly will do, gonna try it soon.
Video above, a general description and aluminum bending.
This guy has hung the bender vertically. With the tight space I am working in, this might be a pretty good idea.
I sent Grizzly another email (thank you @SkyknightJohn ! that was a great tip!). They helped me a lot the first time but new questions regarding shipping arose.
I tried a lot of shops here in the Netherlands, but they can only get plastic rollers for SST or AL.
If shipping is an issue for Grizzly, I might ask (without obligation) this forum for help, but that is for later, I'll wait first
I tried a lot of shops here in the Netherlands, but they can only get plastic rollers for SST or AL.
If shipping is an issue for Grizzly, I might ask (without obligation) this forum for help, but that is for later, I'll wait first
Did Grizzly ship that bender or did you find it locally? I’m surprised if they shipped that that the dies would be an issue.
Benders like that with the follow on die should help prevent ovalization and kinks, but I’ve never heard a report for how it does with the really thin wall 0.035”/0.9mm tubing.
I had ok success with a conduit bender (no follow on die) down to 0.058”, 0.049 had problems, 0.035” just crumpled.
Looks like it would be a good radius for Stays for sure. Looking forward to seeing how it works for you.
(I’ll need to watch the vids later when time allows, too.)
Benders like that with the follow on die should help prevent ovalization and kinks, but I’ve never heard a report for how it does with the really thin wall 0.035”/0.9mm tubing.
I had ok success with a conduit bender (no follow on die) down to 0.058”, 0.049 had problems, 0.035” just crumpled.
Looks like it would be a good radius for Stays for sure. Looking forward to seeing how it works for you.
(I’ll need to watch the vids later when time allows, too.)
Locally only one (out of many companies I spammed) offered plastic rollers. Grizzly has the steel rollers I actually desire.
Grizzly emailed me some information, telling that above 70 lbs (31 kilograms) is considered "FREIGHT" and then they can only ship it via a dealer or person in the USA. Since I don't know what these roller-sets weigh...
So in my second email (spam
) I asked:- What the weight of these rollers are.
- If three sets are more than 70 lbs, if they can ship it in two boxes. Then I might order one extra set of rollers (4 sets).
- What will the total shipping cost be with two packages.
so I'll take that into consideration too.
