Do not get them wet!

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The New York Times? Misinformation comes in many flavors…..

Can we faithfully quote the most libelous and untrustworthy newspaper in the nation? The one said to be entirely suitable for wrapping dead fish?

We can’t list all the foibles of the NYT here. The thread would properly be closed if we did.

About the NYT reporting I will say that noted historian Sean Wilentz wrote, "No effort to educate the public in order to advance social justice can afford to dispense with a respect for basic facts."

For Right or Wrong, they have “polished up” the facts too many times.
 
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Pick your poison. Mainstream media seems to be more reliable hands down
 
Oh, Matti, They are just as reliable as the government that controls them.

Now the Times has been a joke since I was a child. Literally the subject of Mad Magazine jabs since the early 60’s.

But they love Trudeau, eh?
 
Again, I have to remind myself that this thread is not about politics. It’s about crappy engineering.

For instance, you don’t actually have to put an EV into the lake to make it catch on fire.

++++++++++++++++++++
From Google News last April:

ERIE, Colo. (KDVR) — Fire crews had a close call on Tuesday when the battery in a hybrid Jeep exploded, after firefighters put water on the smoking vehicle.

It happened in Erie’s Morgan Hill neighborhood around 8:16 a.m. Mountain View Fire Rescue released an account of what happened . . .
+++++++++++++++++++

So fire departments don’t know whether or not it’s safe to put water on a burning vehicle. Or even one just emitting smoke.

Maybe they could put the fire out or at least damp it down, but on the other hand they might create an explosion.

The one in question blew the doors off the garage, And that was not a big Tesla battery at all.

It was the tiny battery, in a tiny hybrid Jeep. It Totaled the jeep, totaled the garage, and almost killed a fireman.

I really don’t care how many tons of carbon we may be saving, if this is the best kind of engineering we’re going to get. How would you like to buy a Jeep and find it’s not safe to get it wet?
 
Just in case we have become too civilized, this is why people buy a jeep:
D6539A72-3188-4A9F-8255-0EA7F16F5E93.jpeg

While I have never owned a Jeep, I have driven my Scout through flowing streams and frozen creeks. If you get them too wet, you just let them dry out, and then they run again.

I want to rant on and on about crappy engineering, but something I have to always consider is that engineers don’t get to choose their own projects very often.

If the boss says that we’re going to take this jeep and we’re going to stick batteries in it somewhere and an electric motor and a bunch of electronics so it can be a hybrid, I would have the choice between finding another job somewhere else, or working on a project that I knew was doomed to be a stinker.

Everybody’s got bills to pay.
 
If the boss says that we’re going to take this jeep and we’re going to stick batteries in it somewhere and an electric motor and a bunch of electronics so it can be a hybrid, I would have the choice between finding another job somewhere else, or working on a project that I knew was doomed to be a stinker
Or you could engineer a better solution, make it work. I'm sure these electric boats are able to get wet
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Now the Times has been a joke since I was a child. Literally the subject of Mad Magazine jabs since the early 60
I noticed that you attacked the messenger, but did not refute any of the points made in the article, which cites its sources and links to studies and research.
 
I noticed that you attacked the messenger, but did not refute any of the points made in the article, which cites its sources and links to studies and research.
I didn't read it. I don’t read Mad magazine anymore either.

Modern wisdom says that you can buy a scientist cheaper than you can buy a politician, and newspaper journalists go even cheaper. Also, the large majority of all published scientific studies and research are eventually refuted. Over 3/4!

It’s like the old joke about the accountant.

A Rich Man goes to a teacher and he asks him, “How much is 2+2?” The teacher replied that, scientifically, the answer is four. He goes to a lawyer and ask the same question. The lawyer tells him, “According to the law, the answer is four.”
Then the rich man goes to an accountant and asks him, “How much is 2+2?” The accountant smiles, Looks at his fine clothes, and asks him, “How much do you want it to be?”

I really don't understand your fears about this. You yourself have admitted that it is less likely than winning the lottery.
https://www.motortrend.com/features/you-are-wrong-about-ev-fires?slide=1
I was being generous. You are statistically much less likely to win the lotto here, than have your lithium-ion car burn.

If you think my concern is a matter of fear, perhaps you don’t understand that I am angry. Our car companies can produce stuff that just blows up randomly in mundane situations. The government leaned on them to do the impossible, so they claim it, and just pretend they have.

It is just scam on scam on scam.

Tesla just recalled 2 million cars because they scammed people into believing the cars can drive themselves reliably. They cannot, and now people are crashing Teslas, so Tesla has to do something.

Do they admit to the people that the autopilot system is a scam, and it can’t really drive itself reliably, and they should not trust it?

No. What they do is add more bells and whistles to a system on which people have already figured out how to defeat the bells and whistles with ordinary things like duck tape and beer cans.
Or you could engineer a better solution, make it work. I'm sure these electric boats are able to get wet.
Being a boat, they probably have much better waterproofing than a jeep.

The bottom line is this: there’s nothing impossible with the EV idea, but the execution has been much less than perfect. The problems have been soft peddled and covered up.

EVs are more expensive to manufacture, and they are worth the extra money. On paper. In the real world we have not come close to the breakeven point. It might be different if everyone is able to charge these things with solar power, but that is not realistic.

Solar power here is only economical because of government subsidies.

I understand in Canada the tax on imported solar panels is so high (285%?) no one can afford them. The one domestic company that does manufacture in Canada is owned by the Chinese!

The Chinese are gonna have us all driving EV’s and burning coal to supply the electricity for them.

BTW I have owned cars built in Canada, and I don’t have anything against Canadian folks. Or the Chinese.

I just think that we jumped the gun on this whole business and it is costing us, and will continue to. We needed way more investment in design up front, so we don’t have to live with the problems later.

It’s not like people didn’t know the problems with lithium. But of course they don’t mention them on any of the sales literature or in the Times.

They do however promote the fact that we have discovered huge new lithium deposits that we can exploit.
 
I didn't read it. I don’t read Mad magazine anymore either.

Modern wisdom says that you can buy a scientist cheaper than you can buy a politician, and newspaper journalists go even cheaper. Also, the large majority of all published scientific studies and research are eventually refuted. Over 3/4!

It’s like the old joke about the accountant.

A Rich Man goes to a teacher and he asks him, “How much is 2+2?” The teacher replied that, scientifically, the answer is four. He goes to a lawyer and ask the same question. The lawyer tells him, “According to the law, the answer is four.”
Then the rich man goes to an accountant and asks him, “How much is 2+2?” The accountant smiles, Looks at his fine clothes, and asks him, “How much do you want it to be?”


I was being generous. You are statistically much less likely to win the lotto here, than have your lithium-ion car burn.

If you think my concern is a matter of fear, perhaps you don’t understand that I am angry. Our car companies can produce stuff that just blows up randomly in mundane situations. The government leaned on them to do the impossible, so they claim it, and just pretend they have.

It is just scam on scam on scam.

Tesla just recalled 2 million cars because they scammed people into believing the cars can drive themselves reliably. They cannot, and now people are crashing Teslas, so Tesla has to do something.

Do they admit to the people that the autopilot system is a scam, and it can’t really drive itself reliably, and they should not trust it?

No. What they do is add more bells and whistles to a system on which people have already figured out how to defeat the bells and whistles with ordinary things like duck tape and beer cans.

Being a boat, they probably have much better waterproofing than a jeep.

The bottom line is this: there’s nothing impossible with the EV idea, but the execution has been much less than perfect. The problems have been soft peddled and covered up.

EVs are more expensive to manufacture, and they are worth the extra money. On paper. In the real world we have not come close to the breakeven point. It might be different if everyone is able to charge these things with solar power, but that is not realistic.

Solar power here is only economical because of government subsidies.

I understand in Canada the tax on imported solar panels is so high (285%?) no one can afford them. The one domestic company that does manufacture in Canada is owned by the Chinese!

The Chinese are gonna have us all driving EV’s and burning coal to supply the electricity for them.

BTW I have owned cars built in Canada, and I don’t have anything against Canadian folks. Or the Chinese.

I just think that we jumped the gun on this whole business and it is costing us, and will continue to. We needed way more investment in design up front, so we don’t have to live with the problems later.

It’s not like people didn’t know the problems with lithium. But of course they don’t mention them on any of the sales literature or in the Times.

They do however promote the fact that we have discovered huge new lithium deposits that we can exploit.
It is basic physics, electronics in any form hate water. If you think otherwise toss a plugged in and switched on toaster in a full bath tub n tell me can you make toast with it after?? Lithium in those batteries burn too hot for most chemicals that local fire department now have and it is known that government runs slow. If you want to park an e bike or Tesla in your garage and not maintenance it like an ice engine car you are going to burn down. Until the tech is reliable aka not lithium ion I cannot risk my house as they are too expensive now.
 
I understand in Canada the tax on imported solar panels is so high (285%?) no one can afford them
I have a solar panel, it was pretty cheap. Must be one of the Canadian ones? I assumed it was from China, as 75% of them come from there.
And I guess it's pretty easy to refute arguments by ignoring them. I guess I'll give that a try.
 
Look, if you think this EV trend is for you, do it! It’s your money.

I want better gear. To me it is still all half-baked. It will improve with effort . . . and time. You have time. I have some time.

But it’s difficult for me to get past the hype. I’m watching Jay Leno talk about the new cyber truck and the salesman is telling him, “Oh yeah, when the apocalypse comes this is where you want to be!”

In a vehicle that you can’t recharge once the electricity grid goes down?

ICE engines can run off of alcohol too. Anybody can make alcohol in their backyard. You could run the car off of it or you could burn it &make electricity to charge your EV which would be about half as efficient.

But when the apocalypse comes you won’t be able to get a charge unless you can create it.
 
So, I do have faith that engineering will improve things. In spite of the negative outside forces affecting the profession.

When they built the cyber truck they evidently recognized the fact that a wet battery was dangerous.

When you want to drive through water, you must press the button that pressurizes the battery compartment with air, to blow any water that might be leaking through cracks she got running over that last rocky obstacle in four-wheel-drive.

This is a very positive response to a problem that we know exists on every battery powered vehicle.
 
That is likely the cost if there were no opposition to the project. Add in 100 lawyers and the cost becomes 100% uncontrolled.

Also it doesn’t include the real cost to private individuals invested in the ICE business. People who fuel, maintain and repair ICE would lose at least double Toyota’s numbers in this.

At least,

No, I don’t have published figures to support that. It is based on my experience with government mandated projects.

And I am being generous in my opinion. For instance, look at the California “bullet” train. We approved $10 billion for it in 2008. It was supposed ti be running in 2018.

BUT, In 15 years they have spent 9.8 billion (!) and not laid one mile of track.

So far all they do is tear down buildings and build bridges for over 15 years. They now estimate the cost at $35 billion, just for the easy half of the line, and not including tunneling through the mountains.

(How long before they build a high performance electric grid here? Never gonna happen. They push to oust the power companies and make everyone install solar power.)

So……Don’t hold your breath. This train was supposed to be running 200 mph. So far, they have a non-operating mockup of one train at the railroad museum in sacramento.

And 50 bridges to nowhere.
 
Oops….$35 billion was the last number I had seen. But now there is this:
604341F7-1F47-40D5-A955-B6001D23550B.jpeg

So now it’s gonna cost 10x the budget, plus the $10 billion already spent?
 
It's an idea that looks good on paper, if the paper was globalist made paper. Which most paper is.
 
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