Internally geared hubs

[Wildcat]

The way I used to find IGH hubs was to watch craigslist for a bike with one. Usually the whole thing was less than the price of a new hub, but there was no guarantee on the hub. Women's beach cruisers always had good parts in my case. Lube and adjust and I had the hub I needed. 3 speed Nexus with coaster brake is the most common, but it needs a cable and shifter. That's what I put on my old Schwinn, I ran the cable through the tank to make it less noticable. Then put the one speed wheel on the beach cruiser, shined it up and sold it for almost what I paid for it.

 

[petehouk]

Is this it?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sturmey-Ar...2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

Yes but of course I need 36H!!!! (I saw that one on eBay in my searches)

I bought one of the S2Cs when they first came out. I put a lot of hard miles on it and eventually it started to make some funny sounds. I took it apart and replaced the bearings. It was never the same so I bought a replacement. The new one was way better than the original--even when the original was new. Quieter, shifts better, has less drag. I think maybe SA made some improvements in those first few years.

Anyway. I was thinking about buying one of those brand new 32H units on eBay, then taking the guts out and putting them in the shell from that original one I have (if I can find it). Is this viable? Or is it just a plan for trashing a brand new 32H hub?

 

[Starnger]

Yes but of course I need 36H!!!! (I saw that one on eBay in my searches)

I bought one of the S2Cs when they first came out. I put a lot of hard miles on it and eventually it started to make some funny sounds. I took it apart and replaced the bearings. It was never the same so I bought a replacement. The new one was way better than the original--even when the original was new. Quieter, shifts better, has less drag. I think maybe SA made some improvements in those first few years.

Anyway. I was thinking about buying one of those brand new 32H units on eBay, then taking the guts out and putting them in the shell from that original one I have (if I can find it). Is this viable? Or is it just a plan for trashing a brand new 32H hub?

Could be a good idea, unless your hub shell has wear on the bearing balls contact area. In that case that would help a bit, but the effect would be temporary. And this is quite possibly the case. Best is to inspect it and see for yourself. If the shell is fine, then replacing the guts is totally the way to go.

 

[axeman88]

I bought one of the S2Cs when they first came out. I put a lot of hard miles on it and eventually it started to make some funny sounds. I took it apart and replaced the bearings. It was never the same so I bought a replacement. The new one was way better than the original--even when the original was new. Quieter, shifts better, has less drag. I think maybe SA made some improvements in those first few years.

I saw some reports of problems with early production, and that some change was subsequently made by SA:
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/1117783-s2c-sturmey-archer-2-speed-kickback.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/general-...9477-sturmey-archer-sc2-hub-reliable-now.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-...r-brake-problems-turning-into-fixed-gear.html

Personally, I think that the Bendix (Yellow Band) design was superior, in so far as it used the planetary gears for the LOW ratio and was direct drive for HIGH, which would mean that HIGH direct drive would present less internal friction, and thus be more efficient. I'll spend most of my time cruising in HIGH, and be using LOW relatively seldom, fighting wind resistance and hills. I'd personally rather have direct drive be HIGH, not LOW.

Bendix RED and YELLOW automatic used planetary gears for LOW and Direct drive for HIGH, while BLUE automatic was direct LOW and planetary gears for HIGH, which is the same as the SA S2C.

 

[Wildcat]

Good info! axeman88!

I've changed the chain wheels on bikes to get a different gear ratio on the 2 speeds. The cog can also be changed, but the Bendix yellow red and blue hubs use a specific driver so the chain wheel would be the way to adjust ratios.
You're right, the S2C and Sram have a direct low and a about a 135% high. Bendix yellow and red have a 67% low and direct high gear. The Bendix blue has a direct low and a 150% high.
Probably the easiest way to get a hub would be Ebay, although I would prefer store bought with a warranty.

 

[twojs.bike]

Digging all this info. I dissembled a Sturmey Archer AW 3 speed yesterday. From 1960. It was surprisingly clean inside. I’ve been reading varying opinions online about what type of oil to use and whether to grease or oil the bearings. No grease on the planetary gears. I am leaning towards using grease in the bearings, but this thing is 63 years old, had no grease and appears to be in perfect shape. Maybe oil is all they need? Thank god for YouTube, or I would never be able to get this back together again!

 

[Wildcat]

The bearings can get grease (lube) while the rest gets light oil. There should be an oil port on the hub shell.

 

[Starnger]

Digging all this info. I dissembled a Sturmey Archer AW 3 speed yesterday. From 1960. It was surprisingly clean inside. I’ve been reading varying opinions online about what type of oil to use and whether to grease or oil the bearings. No grease on the planetary gears. I am leaning towards using grease in the bearings, but this thing is 63 years old, had no grease and appears to be in perfect shape. Maybe oil is all they need? Thank god for YouTube, or I would never be able to get this back together again!

It depends on the model and design really. Older hubs tend to run on oil, many later models use grease, some use combination of both. I personally most of the time grease the big shell bearings and apply oil on planetary mechanism.

 

[twojs.bike]

Yes that is my plan. I was reading that you should use a non-petroleum grease so the oil does not dissolve into the grease. The theory makes sense, but I did some experimenting with a variety of oils and greases. I put a small amount of grease and oil in a cup and stirred them together. Every combination I came up with dissolved together. The best grease seemed to be a Valvoline Gray Lithium Multi Fortified. But even that still dissolved the oil. Maybe I need to find a full synthetic grease.

Here is the grease:
https://www.valvoline.com/en/multi-vehicle-moly-fortified-gray-grease/
Here is the best article I could find on rebuilding SA hubs:
https://bikesmithdesign.com/SA/SA-tips.pdf

 

[twojs.bike]

Maybe this would be a better choice grease. I don't have any, but might go look for some.
https://www.valvoline.com/en/full-synthetic-grease/

 

[twojs.bike]

In case I wasn't clear on the goal. The goal is for the bearing grease to create a seal that protects and prolongs the life of the gear oil. I will be sending this bike back out into the wild and am hoping it will last another 60 years without much maintenance.

 

[Starnger]

I use lithium blue grease and simple vaseline oil in most cases. However for specific applications i have a whole set of different ones. For example Nexus hubs take thinner white lithium grease and thicker transmission oil. Sometimes for the coaster brakes i use hi-temp Shimano Roller brake grease, since coasters could get very hot.

 

[bleedingfingers]

Sachs Torpedo hub is my favourite and have owned the SA two speed as well.
The SA was a little stiff and upon inspection the bearings had almost no grease from the factory
worked fine after grease was applied but not as nice as rebuilt Sachs from the 1960s .

 

[ingola]

If you want solid go with old sturmey archer aw hub

Bulletproof I grab every one of these I can. I've 100s of them never needed more than oil in hub and ride the crap out of them.

 

[axeman88]

If you want solid go with old sturmey archer aw hub
Bulletproof I grab every one of these I can. I've 100s of them never needed more than oil in hub and ride the crap out of them.

No doubt the SA AWs are reliable hubs, but, if one wants to retain their painted, old school rims, like these:

Is there any way that rim brakes are an option?

Then there is the issue of cables, the OP suggested they prefer a clean look with no cables. I'm no expert, but besides the issue of appearance, cables seem to be a weak link with respect to durability and maintenance. I may be a bit of a klutz, but I'm always catching cables on something when pulling bikes in and out of storage. The simplicity of a cable-less setup is quite appealing to me for a knock-about two wheeler.

This is where something like the Bendix Automatic or SA S2C checks all the boxes.

Something like an older Bendix aviation manual 2 speed hub would require just one cable.

Some folks mount this on frame tube under the seat, which seems fine for use on the occasional hill.

Seems like, if all one has available is a coaster brake, it should be very reliable. I believe that all of the Bendix hubs have a good reputation for braking?

I was thinking of rebuilding the rear wheel of the blue Shelby Hiawatha I pictured above, with a three speed coaster brake hub, because I had a couple available. I'm just concerned about needing to rely on a lone coaster brake in any of these 3 speed, coaster brake hubs:
Sturmey Archer TCW ( Mark I is worst, Mark II, III, & IV better, but all drive braking through gears, so weaker braking in High gear)
Sturmey Archer SC3 (Brake is direct drive)
Sturmey Archer AWC (said to be most reliable and robust, I think a version is still produced)
Shimano 333 coaster brake

 

[MattiThundrrr]

Is there any way that rim brakes are an option?

Then there is the issue of cables, the OP suggested they prefer a clean look with no cables.

First, the hub will in no way dictate what you do with rim brakes, it is possible to have both a coaster and rim brakes, or a Sturmey Archer geared hub with no coaster However, as for the cables, you can't have rim brakes without cables. They are required to connect the levers to the brakes. And I wouldn't recommend rim brakes of you want to keep the painted rim surfaces, brakes will strip it right off.

 

[RustySprockets]

First, the hub will in no way dictate what you do with rim brakes, it is possible to have both a coaster and rim brakes, or a Sturmey Archer geared hub with no coaster However, as for the cables, you can't have rim brakes without cables. They are required to connect the levers to the brakes. And I wouldn't recommend rim brakes of you want to keep the painted rim surfaces, brakes will strip it right off.

I think Axeman's point was that he wanted to keep the original painted rims and, with no braking surface, rim brakes just won't be a practical option.

 

[axeman88]

I think Axeman's point was that he wanted to keep the original painted rims and, with no braking surface, rim brakes just won't be a practical option.

Yes, and it's not just preserving the paint surface, I question whether any type of caliper brake will work with this style of clincher rims. The rim side walls are angled at around 45 degrees to the plane of the wheel.

The geometry is easier to see in this picture of a similar chromed rim from a middle weight:

Do folks use caliper brakes with such shallow side wall angles? Seems like rod brakes would be more suitable, if I wasn't trying to preserve my painted rims, that is.

I'd argue that rod brakes are a type of rim brake that doesn't use cables, but this is more of a pedantic point than something that I'd be interested in pursuing, at least for the blue Shelby Hiawatha. And rod linkages are certainly not simple, especially for a rear brake.

My goals are similar to the OP's
- Have a lower gear available
- With a minimum of cables
+ Plus I'm ruling out the possibility of adding rim brakes, front or rear.

The bike has a New Departure Model D on it now, which seems quite robust. I think I'll go measure the dropout width and count spokes to see if that narrows my options.

 

[ingola]

Yes, and it's not just preserving the paint surface, I question whether any type of caliper brake will work with this style of clincher rims. The rim side walls are angled at around 45 degrees to the plane of the wheel.
View attachment 221447
The geometry is easier to see in this picture of a similar chromed rim from a middle weight:
View attachment 221451
Do folks use caliper brakes with such shallow side wall angles? Seems like rod brakes would be more suitable, if I wasn't trying to preserve my painted rims, that is.

I'd argue that rod brakes are a type of rim brake that doesn't use cables, but this is more of a pedantic point than something that I'd be interested in pursuing, at least for the blue Shelby Hiawatha. And rod linkages are certainly not simple, especially for a rear brake.

My goals are similar to the OP's
- Have a lower gear available
- With a minimum of cables
+ Plus I'm ruling out the possibility of adding rim brakes, front or rear.

The bike has a New Departure Model D on it now, which seems quite robust. I think I'll go measure the dropout width and count spokes to see if that narrows my options.

There are several options,drum,coaster sa,Sachs,Bendix all work great just keep in mind none of them will be cheap unless you get lucky and come across one cheap.

 

[Wildcat]

Yes, and it's not just preserving the paint surface, I question whether any type of caliper brake will work with this style of clincher rims. The rim side walls are angled at around 45 degrees to the plane of the wheel.
View attachment 221447
The geometry is easier to see in this picture of a similar chromed rim from a middle weight:
View attachment 221451
Do folks use caliper brakes with such shallow side wall angles? Seems like rod brakes would be more suitable, if I wasn't trying to preserve my painted rims, that is.

I'd argue that rod brakes are a type of rim brake that doesn't use cables, but this is more of a pedantic point than something that I'd be interested in pursuing, at least for the blue Shelby Hiawatha. And rod linkages are certainly not simple, especially for a rear brake.

My goals are similar to the OP's
- Have a lower gear available
- With a minimum of cables
+ Plus I'm ruling out the possibility of adding rim brakes, front or rear.

The bike has a New Departure Model D on it now, which seems quite robust. I think I'll go measure the dropout width and count spokes to see if that narrows my options.

Those drop center rims won't work with rod brakes either. No rim brakes will work, has to be a hub brake, coaster, roller, drum, or disc.