New Rats or Old Rats?

[SILVERKINGPC]

New Rat-style bikes with new parts and designs are filling a market void today as the visibility of Old Rats increases.
Personally, I think any bicycle is a good bicycle and encourage it even though not all-USA made...

The question is: Do you think new rats will make old rats more valuable and even cooler?

 

[Bicycle808]

I think that new-production rats/"kustoms"/stretches/chops/etc will produce a halo effect, as the market begins to seek out "authenticity". So, yes, overall, I think the trend will have a positive effect on the value of "old rats"....but, there will be many cases where the inverse will be true. A buyer may ask "why would I buy your old bike, when I can get a brand new Micargi for hundreds less?" In some customers' eyes, the Micargi is "the exact same thing." So, i don't expect it to have a profound effect, overall.

I agree when you say "any bicycle is a good bicycle," although i must confess that i firmly believe that some are less good than others. I also agree that there's nothing wrong with imported bikes and frames, but i do take exception to ppl misrepresenting a given product's origin of manufacture. Having your HQ in the USA or some other developed nation doesn't mean much if your products are actually made in the third world, under wage-slave/sweatshop conditions....

 

[SILVERKINGPC]

Older, hand forged, cut or machined metal parts hand made by better paid, well treated usa labor is a great thing. Superior in many ways I believe!

 

[patman73]

faking an old rat style is not to bad , but shiny rats are not as cool as rats build by endiviguals to fit ones own taste in style old rats are hard i judge on value
buillt not bought is what alot o people want , mass produced rat bike are not going to bring up the value

 

[Bicycle808]

You mean like Murray when they were producing Valiants?

Ha!

 

[Bicycle808]

You mean like Murray when they were producing Valiants?

Turns out, when they were producing Valiants, Murray was getting the frames from sweatshops in China... Unless the "C-H-I-N-A" stamped on the BB shell is some kind of esoteric Murray serial #. I just got the frame, CeeBee; looks good, nice job packin' it. Now, I'm just trying to figure out what size post it takes...

 

[mornview]

I got my start with older cruisers, and for the longest time would never give anything modern a shot. In the long run, though, my stance has been loosening up quite a bit. Because I build bikes 80% functionality/20% style (I'm probably being a bit generous/benevolent with that ratio ), I'm beginning to acquiesce that I can get around (read: commute) just as well on a 2013 cruiser as I can a 1960 cruiser. And if it means I can save a few hundred $'s because the 2013 cruiser doesn't have any kind of historical merit, so be it.

One component I still tend to go vintage for is the coaster brake hub (but even then I'm beginning to be alright with KT's). Outside of that, you still have people like Wald and Sun building headsets, cranksets, etc. well enough for my purposes.

All of that being said, there is absolutely no comparison when it comes to aesthetics. I think that might be even more reason for me to use more modern equipment, though; if I'm going to buy a bike I'm going to really use it, and admittedly I would hate to see some of the beautiful bikes of yesteryear (that are still in good shape) worn down.

 

[Bicycle808]

I got my start with older cruisers, and for the longest time would never give anything modern a shot. In the long run, though, my stance has been loosening up quite a bit. Because I build bikes 80% functionality/20% style (I'm probably being a bit generous/benevolent with that ratio ), I'm beginning to acquiesce that I can get around (read: commute) just as well on a 2013 cruiser as I can a 1960 cruiser. And if it means I can save a few hundred $'s because the 2013 cruiser doesn't have any kind of historical merit, so be it.

One component I still tend to go vintage for is the coaster brake hub (but even then I'm beginning to be alright with KT's). Outside of that, you still have people like Wald and Sun building headsets, cranksets, etc. well enough for my purposes.

All of that being said, there is absolutely no comparison when it comes to aesthetics. I think that might be even more reason for me to use more modern equipment, though; if I'm going to buy a bike I'm going to really use it, and admittedly I would hate to see some of the beautiful bikes of yesteryear (that are still in good shape) worn down.

Well-stated; and this is 100% the reason why I klunk late-model industrial bikes instead of the "real deal" pre-war balloon bikes. To me, it seems like a shame to run a beautiful piece of historical machinery into the ground on the trail or on the daily grind to work. Of course, others disagree and I respect their preferences 100%.... I just know that, as much as I wanna klunk out a prewar model C, it would break my heart once the frame snapped, or even started to show serious wear. With an INB or modern SHD, I can happily kill the frame, scrap the steel, and hit Chuckz up with another $65 for a replacement. Oh, a word to the aspiring industrial klunker enthusiast: the Summit Workhorse is a SHD clone, but with a 1" threaded headtube and a traditional kickstand plate---if you wanna run a BMX quill stem or an ashtabula, go with the Summit over the SHD.... Or, if you despise the Schwinn kickstand tube, but don't wanna cut it b/c you want the extra support between the chainstays---the kickstand plate is far less obtrusive than the tube.

As for Wald stuff: it's cheap. It's primitive. It's arguably ugly (personally, I like the look of simple, primitive, non-presumptious stuff...). But, it gets the job done, day after day. And a new Wald BB or headset costs less than $10 from any honest retailer, so I got a bunch of new spares in the parts bin, for when things wear out or for when I buy another project frame....

 

[mornview]

This is proof that my statement that I build bikes "80% functionality/20% style" is a lie - I had the choice of getting a Heavy Duti, Worksman, or Summit from Chuck and I based my decision to go with the Heavy Duti on the fact that the 2013 model was the most stylish. I am now kicking myself for the very reasons you outlined ... I really hate that Schwinn kickstand, and I also wish it used a 1" headset. Some lessons you have to learn the hard way .

 

[Bicycle808]

Get a Wald 4080 headset; run your favorite 1" threaded fork with it on the SHD. Problem solved.

The Summits are usually monochrome yellow or black; minimalist "style", in my opinion. I think Safety Yellow is probably the nicest color for bikes.... Safety Orange is good, too.

 

[Rebel_56]

i say old bikes all the way for various reasons. history, style,and not to mention the kats that made those bikes are most likely dead and their art is still living on.. steel quality is much different from then to now. i know i can take my board track on a 1930s frame and ride the town at 55 mph and im coming home in one piece. get a chinese bike and if you dont gusset and reinforce the entire frame one bump in the road will fold your frame up faster then taco tuesday. same goes for a kat who weighs 300 plus lbs just a sunday ride which will bend first?? i say old bikes all the way it saves some chinese kid a days labor.for us vintage bike guys our bikes are worth what someone will pay. new bikes are on craigslist for 50 bucks for a reason. id rather spend $125 on a prewar seat then get an entire new bike from walmart. the term rat rod came from american cars or trucks being put together with a bunch of other cars and parts.we started that here in america. unless you have a reality show based outa las vegas that made an acura and called it a rat rod(what a joke walderup) why would you take a chinese bike and do the same???. i dunno i say old bikes all day everyday but thats just my opinoin

 

[Bicycle808]

I hear what you're saying, Rebel_56, but if you're going to ride a bike to work on salted wintry roads, or if you weigh 250lbs and ride hard offroad, you might not want to do it on an irreplaceable piece of historical "art", right? Just last night, I rode a 2008 Worksman (frame and many other parts made in America, BTW) to work and back; I took "the long way home" and bombed some trails on it (fenders and all) to see how my dynamo lights would fare in the woods at 10:30pm. (Visibility was pretty good!) Aside from some mud, everything turned out ok, but what if it hadn't? I'd feel like crap if I'd crashed and bent or snapped something, had it been a nice prewar bike. I tend to prefer the Worksman bikes to the imported industrial bikes, but I'm using these things as tools for commuting and trail-riding, not as collectors' pieces or show bikes. One of the first rules of RRB is you don't talk about the definition of "RatRod", but if you want to do something on the cheap with items on-hand, retired industrial bikes fit the bill for many of us, whether they're domestic or imported...

As for modern steel versus old steel, I definitely agree that things have changed, and that the old steel commonly used for frames and components was often harder/better than the modern stuff. But, a lot of metallurgical advances have been made, and most quality components will be made from aluminum rather than steel.... and high-end steel tubing of today is light-years ahead of most everything they used for frames back then. The flip side is, the cheap hi-ten and mild steel of today pales in comparison t the steel most often used back then. So, comparisons are hard b/c changes in technology and the bicycle market have almost created an apples to oranges situation. But, yeah, the steel that comprises the modern industrial bikes' frames is bottom of the barrel, but they compensate by using plenty of it-- Heavy duty, with the emphasis on "heavy".

Anecdotally, when the Transition bike guys were riding old cruisers and Industrial bikes offroad, before they came out with the Transition Klunker model, they found that the modern SHD and Worksman INB frames were far hardier than the Chicago Schwinns were; the stays on the older Schwinns stretched and sagged to the point where the bottom bracket was measurably closer to the ground. (The one dude from those videos, Thad, was posting on here and remarked at how much of a difference he got when he measured his BB height before and after a few hard rides on an old Schwinn canti frame....)

As I see it, they don't make the old frames anymore, although Worksman is still making their new frames the old way, but I cannot replace a vintage frame if I bend it offroad or if Jersey winters eat thru the metal. I mean, yeah, I can buy another, but that ones gone, and they won't make more. They keep making more Industrial bikes, though, so I see them as the perfect beater: common, cheap, guilt-free, current-production balloon bikes that I can modify and beat on as I see fit, without upsetting anyone. If I bought a '37 Schwinn and klunked it or rode it to work in February, some ppl would be filled with despair. Worse yet, I believe I'd be one of those ppl. So, yeah, I got some older/cooler bikes, but those stay in the garage when it's time to go to work in crap weather, or ride trails. The hard miles go on newer machines; less stressful that way.

 

[patman73]

beach cruiser of anytype were never meant to be use for comutters & especialyy not off road / trail bikes so yeah they won't last long
older cool bikes i like , but sometimes a new one fits a persons need more& the don't have rebuild an old bike into a rider that suites them

 

[Rebel_56]

I hear what you're saying, Rebel_56, but if you're going to ride a bike to work on salted wintry roads, or if you weigh 250lbs and ride hard offroad, you might not want to do it on an irreplaceable piece of historical "art", right? Just last night, I rode a 2008 Worksman (frame and many other parts made in America, BTW) to work and back; I took "the long way home" and bombed some trails on it (fenders and all) to see how my dynamo lights would fare in the woods at 10:30pm. (Visibility was pretty good!) Aside from some mud, everything turned out ok, but what if it hadn't? I'd feel like crap if I'd crashed and bent or snapped something, had it been a nice prewar bike. I tend to prefer the Worksman bikes to the imported industrial bikes, but I'm using these things as tools for commuting and trail-riding, not as collectors' pieces or show bikes. One of the first rules of RRB is you don't talk about the definition of "RatRod", but if you want to do something on the cheap with items on-hand, retired industrial bikes fit the bill for many of us, whether they're domestic or imported...

As for modern steel versus old steel, I definitely agree that things have changed, and that the old steel commonly used for frames and components was often harder/better than the modern stuff. But, a lot of metallurgical advances have been made, and most quality components will be made from aluminum rather than steel.... and high-end steel tubing of today is light-years ahead of most everything they used for frames back then. The flip side is, the cheap hi-ten and mild steel of today pales in comparison t the steel most often used back then. So, comparisons are hard b/c changes in technology and the bicycle market have almost created an apples to oranges situation. But, yeah, the steel that comprises the modern industrial bikes' frames is bottom of the barrel, but they compensate by using plenty of it-- Heavy duty, with the emphasis on "heavy".

Anecdotally, when the Transition bike guys were riding old cruisers and Industrial bikes offroad, before they came out with the Transition Klunker model, they found that the modern SHD and Worksman INB frames were far hardier than the Chicago Schwinns were; the stays on the older Schwinns stretched and sagged to the point where the bottom bracket was measurably closer to the ground. (The one dude from those videos, Thad, was posting on here and remarked at how much of a difference he got when he measured his BB height before and after a few hard rides on an old Schwinn canti frame....)

As I see it, they don't make the old frames anymore, although Worksman is still making their new frames the old way, but I cannot replace a vintage frame if I bend it offroad or if Jersey winters eat thru the metal. I mean, yeah, I can buy another, but that ones gone, and they won't make more. They keep making more Industrial bikes, though, so I see them as the perfect beater: common, cheap, guilt-free, current-production balloon bikes that I can modify and beat on as I see fit, without upsetting anyone. If I bought a '37 Schwinn and klunked it or rode it to work in February, some ppl would be filled with despair. Worse yet, I believe I'd be one of those ppl. So, yeah, I got some older/cooler bikes, but those stay in the garage when it's time to go to work in crap weather, or ride trails. The hard miles go on newer machines; less stressful that way.

I fully support workman bicycles I'm just knocking the cheap Chinese bikes. Just my opinion. I live in the city born and raised in la la land and now In Las Vegas so the most off-roading I do is dodging crack heads and hookers. I was just voicing my opinion which may not be agreeable to others. The newest bike I own is a 1966 newsboy special. I would have no problem crushing that bike cause it's too new for me.. Trust me I got my entire body tattooed and 7 on my face I say do whatever anyone wants im not one to judge nor should my opinion go any further then just being an opinion. Me personally I love old bikes. The two rat rods I have are an accumulation of 1950s parts. But my taste varies from the next guys. No I would not chop apart an old bike or take it off roads cause I live in a city with millions of people and lots of concrete. But if I was to live somewhere that was off-road or had more rugged conditions then yes I would have a more correct bike for the conditions. I respect everyone's opinion on here, yours more then most, I'm just throwing im my two sense not trying to offend. I still say old vs new but again different sides of the country different taste that's all

 

[Bicycle808]

No worries, and no offense. And, for real, I agree.... I like old bikes more than new bikes, in almost every respect. Horses for courses, and all that, but you can't beat the old bikes if you like your machine to have some charisma. But you can't beat the new (cheap) ones for ease of replacement... I guess I'm just pragmatic to a fault....

 

[Bicycle808]

beach cruiser of anytype were never meant to be use for comutters & especialyy not off road / trail bikes so yeah they won't last long
older cool bikes i like , but sometimes a new one fits a persons need more& the don't have rebuild an old bike into a rider that suites them

Trail riding on cruisers?


And, if you got a short commute, you can commute on anything. Heck, I could ride uni to my one job....it's 3 miles away!

 

[patman73]

i know you can cumute on a beach cruiser , i have rode 28 mile on mine & i was saying because of what was orignaly ment for
if you change any bike & make it better for the person who rides it anything is possible
you could even ride with the spandex guys & pass them & look cooler doing it on your rat bike , not a high doller fancey machine like the ride !

 

[Rebel_56]

No worries, and no offense. And, for real, I agree.... I like old bikes more than new bikes, in almost every respect. Horses for courses, and all that, but you can't beat the old bikes if you like your machine to have some charisma. But you can't beat the new (cheap) ones for ease of replacement... I guess I'm just pragmatic to a fault....

i guess every bike has its place.. i did this build for a big car show at the hard rock this past summer and used a $50 hufffy and sold it right after for $175

i would not use a classic bike for this purpose. for my own collection i keep it old but i guess to a point a bike is a bike. get on it and ride lol

 

[Bicycle808]

That's hott; you did a lot with a throwaway Huffy there; I'm guessing the exposure of the show helped the sale, but still.... nice work. (And, yeah, I agree that you picked the right type of bike for the job...)

 

[Rebel_56]

That's hott; you did a lot with a throwaway Huffy there; I'm guessing the exposure of the show helped the sale, but still.... nice work. (And, yeah, I agree that you picked the right type of bike for the job...)

That was nothing compared to what I've seen Kats on here do lol it was just a fast thing to make it to the show. Other then cutting the the front fender and adding another bracket on the rear fender it was just thrown together to match that Buick. The paint is the same paint on that Buick it's from the company that has the military contract for their od green and I painted the wheels and grabbed all the spare parts I had. Yea the show sold that bike for what I ended up getting without that Buick that would've just been another Walmart special that looked kool which brings me back to this thread. Old over new lol.. I do have an old Hawthorne that I want to do a military build on. I got my grandads ammo boxes from the 40s I want to use I don't like hawthornes so I can see myself making a ratty creation with that.