Somehow I don't think old Al had anything to do with the OCC...........did he??
THE FRITZ FIFTY - LIMITED EDITION STING-RAY
- Thread starter Rat Rod
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I haven't been on in a while, but I just picked up my #196 Fritz. It came in about a month ago, but I didn't have time to get it until today. The nearest shop that could get one for me was an hour away. And if you were wondering, it is fully assembled and I will be riding the tires off it come spring. If I have some free time I may start a thread where I post pictures and pick it apart, but for now, some initial random thoughts:
The frame is really rough-looking. I understand it's not a Chicago Schwinn, but they could have at least tried. With the chrome plating, the giant welds stick out like a sore thumb. I feel like you can skimp on some components for a bike like this, but get the frame right or it will look cheap. And that it does. It has a built-in kickstand with a rubber boot like the old ones, which is a nice touch. The handle bars are much nicer than the Black Fridays. I can flex those by hand, these are solid and the chrome looks a lot better. The tires rule! White letter slick in the back, and even a correct-ish looking Schwinn branded front tire. The seat seems kind of cheap compared to the old ones, but it's not bad. The Sting-Ray seat tag helps. The stem is hideous. Why the allen bolts?! I'm not sure how I feel about the black on chrome scheme. I get what they were going for, but it wouldn't have been my first choice. The chainguard looks amazing. On quick inspection it looks like it was chromed, masked and painted black, then a waterslide decal was applied, then cleared over. It looks really nice, especially compared to the air-bubbled stickers on the Black Friday bikes. The rims are anodized alloy, which look cheap to me. The weight savings is probably a plus (for the few which will actually be ridden) but chrome or polished would have looked better. Even black with polished sides might have worked, but the silver looks out of place to me. Like they were an afterthought. The coaster brake is a generic-looking Chinese one. I don't know why that surprises me, but a Sturmey Archer coaster brake would have been such a nice upgrade, and keeping with the history. The bike is covered in stupid warning stickers, (don't ride at night?) but I guess that's probably the case with any mass-produced bike these days. Hopefully they are easy to pick off. I was hoping for some cool documentation, like maybe a numbered certificate or something, but no. I just got a few universal manuals and papers that come with every Schwinn model.
In summary, this bike is far superior to the Black Friday ones but still falls short of the original Krates. (I've never seen one of the 90s reproductions, so I cannot compare it to those.) I may make a few reversible upgrades such as polished rims and better hubs, but so far I am fairly happy. Also, having lost a grandfather to Alzheimer's about 10 years ago, the contribution to that cause was a nice bonus.
I'd love to hear other owners chime in with their thoughts. (Unless you're keeping it in the box, then I don't want to talk to you!
)
The frame is really rough-looking. I understand it's not a Chicago Schwinn, but they could have at least tried. With the chrome plating, the giant welds stick out like a sore thumb. I feel like you can skimp on some components for a bike like this, but get the frame right or it will look cheap. And that it does. It has a built-in kickstand with a rubber boot like the old ones, which is a nice touch. The handle bars are much nicer than the Black Fridays. I can flex those by hand, these are solid and the chrome looks a lot better. The tires rule! White letter slick in the back, and even a correct-ish looking Schwinn branded front tire. The seat seems kind of cheap compared to the old ones, but it's not bad. The Sting-Ray seat tag helps. The stem is hideous. Why the allen bolts?! I'm not sure how I feel about the black on chrome scheme. I get what they were going for, but it wouldn't have been my first choice. The chainguard looks amazing. On quick inspection it looks like it was chromed, masked and painted black, then a waterslide decal was applied, then cleared over. It looks really nice, especially compared to the air-bubbled stickers on the Black Friday bikes. The rims are anodized alloy, which look cheap to me. The weight savings is probably a plus (for the few which will actually be ridden) but chrome or polished would have looked better. Even black with polished sides might have worked, but the silver looks out of place to me. Like they were an afterthought. The coaster brake is a generic-looking Chinese one. I don't know why that surprises me, but a Sturmey Archer coaster brake would have been such a nice upgrade, and keeping with the history. The bike is covered in stupid warning stickers, (don't ride at night?) but I guess that's probably the case with any mass-produced bike these days. Hopefully they are easy to pick off. I was hoping for some cool documentation, like maybe a numbered certificate or something, but no. I just got a few universal manuals and papers that come with every Schwinn model.
In summary, this bike is far superior to the Black Friday ones but still falls short of the original Krates. (I've never seen one of the 90s reproductions, so I cannot compare it to those.) I may make a few reversible upgrades such as polished rims and better hubs, but so far I am fairly happy. Also, having lost a grandfather to Alzheimer's about 10 years ago, the contribution to that cause was a nice bonus.
I'd love to hear other owners chime in with their thoughts. (Unless you're keeping it in the box, then I don't want to talk to you!
)
Just finished reading this post, and I thought some might appreciate, and contemplate some perspective from an "inside the bike industry" lifer:
I think it is healthy to critique, compare, and brain storm what should and should not be done to make a good bike, a better America, crazy stuff, whatever. That is the beauty of the internet. But often when you read and see a sort of "mob mentality" brewing in a forum, it is interesting to see if it will spiral out of control, or if a dose of sanity will be infused, or where it will turn next.
In the case of the Fritz Fifty , I thought I would throw some information out there to chew on, because I often read in this and every other form of social media, about "American made", and "greedy companies", and "Chinese crap" etc.
So here are a few things that may effect your opinions: (or not)
First, I would like to ask you this question: "Do you think that anyone gets into the bicycle industry to get rich??" The folks at most bike companies want to do everything possible to create great bikes. No one is rubbing their hands together saying "haha I just made a POS when people wanted a high quality expensive bike". Yes there are some cheap "trollers" out there, but no one gets into bikes to purposefully bring things down. That is a much more complex machine that WE as Americans created. We drove our own factories out of business, (Schwinn, TWICE) WE demanded cheap goods from China, and WE decided to reward the low quality products, and not give our dollars to builders of prideful high end machinery.
I have to laugh at the comment that said that the $60 bike would be $200 if made in the USA!! Are you kidding?? If it were made in the USA, it would be the same POS. (unless it was 10 times the price) China is not the problem; What we ask them to build, what we accept at retail, and what we value is the problem. An FYI, a Schwinn Stingray from 1970 would retail for over $600 today. And that is ONLY if they are being made in the volume that they made then, when you did not change tooling every six months, but every six years. AND if American workers were willing to have a working wage that is lower than today. You want that factory job? Yeah, me neither.
Before this turns into a book that everyone picks apart (too late), all I mean is that "product managers do not choose cheap", or "not what I would use" parts because they are trying to make a crappy bike, they choose these parts because they may have no other options, be it tooling, cost, volume, etc.
So for example the stem: Back in 1970, Schwinn made it's own parts, or farmed them out to sub contractors. But today, for 500 pieces, a steel forged stem? Yeah right. Try the clamping force; The alloy will bite much better in today's manufacturing ability anyway. I don't like it, but I see why they did it. I would have polished the rims though...(what were they thinking?!)
I do agree that there is no point in making this bike with poor Chrome, and poor parts, but the alternative was not to make it. For 500 pieces, the marketing it can generate, and the revenue (arguably none), it is probably about all they could do.
What will change things is what was said in the forum; Support American manufacturing. But just know ahead of time, that means much higher costs. I read lots of comments about how much the tires were wanted, with no guilt about them being made in a Chinese sweat shop.
America has a bigger problem to address than just "made in the USA", it is "Do you or anyone you know want to work in a sweat shop?". We will need to take a step backwards from the expectation of wealth that we have today, to a point where you buy 1 bicycle every 10 years, like you did in 1970.......Then you can build a Stingray of quality in the USA. Simple economics, ask yourself how much "stuff" people owned then, and how much "crap" we own today, and you start to see that it is a very entangled web of economics, culture, entitlement and short sighted people/companies/government that makes a Chinese bicycle "demanded" by the market...Now go ride your bike, and let's figure out how to put America to work, by understanding the reasons we got here first, so we don't do it again.
I think it is healthy to critique, compare, and brain storm what should and should not be done to make a good bike, a better America, crazy stuff, whatever. That is the beauty of the internet. But often when you read and see a sort of "mob mentality" brewing in a forum, it is interesting to see if it will spiral out of control, or if a dose of sanity will be infused, or where it will turn next.
In the case of the Fritz Fifty , I thought I would throw some information out there to chew on, because I often read in this and every other form of social media, about "American made", and "greedy companies", and "Chinese crap" etc.
So here are a few things that may effect your opinions: (or not)
First, I would like to ask you this question: "Do you think that anyone gets into the bicycle industry to get rich??" The folks at most bike companies want to do everything possible to create great bikes. No one is rubbing their hands together saying "haha I just made a POS when people wanted a high quality expensive bike". Yes there are some cheap "trollers" out there, but no one gets into bikes to purposefully bring things down. That is a much more complex machine that WE as Americans created. We drove our own factories out of business, (Schwinn, TWICE) WE demanded cheap goods from China, and WE decided to reward the low quality products, and not give our dollars to builders of prideful high end machinery.
I have to laugh at the comment that said that the $60 bike would be $200 if made in the USA!! Are you kidding?? If it were made in the USA, it would be the same POS. (unless it was 10 times the price) China is not the problem; What we ask them to build, what we accept at retail, and what we value is the problem. An FYI, a Schwinn Stingray from 1970 would retail for over $600 today. And that is ONLY if they are being made in the volume that they made then, when you did not change tooling every six months, but every six years. AND if American workers were willing to have a working wage that is lower than today. You want that factory job? Yeah, me neither.
Before this turns into a book that everyone picks apart (too late), all I mean is that "product managers do not choose cheap", or "not what I would use" parts because they are trying to make a crappy bike, they choose these parts because they may have no other options, be it tooling, cost, volume, etc.
So for example the stem: Back in 1970, Schwinn made it's own parts, or farmed them out to sub contractors. But today, for 500 pieces, a steel forged stem? Yeah right. Try the clamping force; The alloy will bite much better in today's manufacturing ability anyway. I don't like it, but I see why they did it. I would have polished the rims though...(what were they thinking?!)
I do agree that there is no point in making this bike with poor Chrome, and poor parts, but the alternative was not to make it. For 500 pieces, the marketing it can generate, and the revenue (arguably none), it is probably about all they could do.
What will change things is what was said in the forum; Support American manufacturing. But just know ahead of time, that means much higher costs. I read lots of comments about how much the tires were wanted, with no guilt about them being made in a Chinese sweat shop.
America has a bigger problem to address than just "made in the USA", it is "Do you or anyone you know want to work in a sweat shop?". We will need to take a step backwards from the expectation of wealth that we have today, to a point where you buy 1 bicycle every 10 years, like you did in 1970.......Then you can build a Stingray of quality in the USA. Simple economics, ask yourself how much "stuff" people owned then, and how much "crap" we own today, and you start to see that it is a very entangled web of economics, culture, entitlement and short sighted people/companies/government that makes a Chinese bicycle "demanded" by the market...Now go ride your bike, and let's figure out how to put America to work, by understanding the reasons we got here first, so we don't do it again.
There are plenty of competitively priced MUSA bike components on the market today. In fact, Velocity rims actually moved production to Florida somewhat recently, b/c they found they could save on shipping and cash-in on the "made in USA" cachet to offset any savings they might experience elsewhere. (TBF, they moved from Australia, which has very high labor costs.) When I think about how, for cruiser stuff, often the cheapest option is made-in-Kentucky Wald goods, I have to really scratch my head about the notion that making heavy/low-quality bikes/parts is cheapest in China. Why do the low-end Chinese headsets cost less than the Wald 4080? Why do the low-end Chinese stems and handlebars cost less than the Wald #4 and the various Wald handlebars?
How does Worksman still braze frames in Brooklyn.... and sell those frames for $185? Or, hang some Wald/imported bits on it and sell completes for $400?
The fact is, this is a complicated discussion and there are many facets we could explore, but to do it righteously goes well beyond the scope of a forum like this. I just want to question the conventional "wisdom" that, in order for bike pricing to be competitive, it has to be made-in-China. There are too many exceptions for that to hold water. Even at the mid- to high-end, American made stuff is competitively priced or priced just slightly higher than imported competition. Think Profile/ Madera cranks versus all other (except the cheapest no-names) 3-piece BMX cranks. Think Gunnar bikes versus Taiwan-built frames of a similar weight. Think about S&M and Standard versus BMX frames of Asian origin. We keep saying that it needs to be Chinese to be affordable, but there's a lot of evidence out there to the contrary.
How does Worksman still braze frames in Brooklyn.... and sell those frames for $185? Or, hang some Wald/imported bits on it and sell completes for $400?
The fact is, this is a complicated discussion and there are many facets we could explore, but to do it righteously goes well beyond the scope of a forum like this. I just want to question the conventional "wisdom" that, in order for bike pricing to be competitive, it has to be made-in-China. There are too many exceptions for that to hold water. Even at the mid- to high-end, American made stuff is competitively priced or priced just slightly higher than imported competition. Think Profile/ Madera cranks versus all other (except the cheapest no-names) 3-piece BMX cranks. Think Gunnar bikes versus Taiwan-built frames of a similar weight. Think about S&M and Standard versus BMX frames of Asian origin. We keep saying that it needs to be Chinese to be affordable, but there's a lot of evidence out there to the contrary.
Not to stir up things but, I completely agree with the associated expense of building a "quality bike" in today's world or worker market place. . However, I think the greatest problem in Schwinn. is actually a very small expense and it's regardless whether made in USA or Moon base I.
The best example is/was the 1995 Black Phantoms, and follows through with the rest of Schwinn stock. For $1,500 or $2,000 price range,, they china cheeped out on the Chrome.. Chrome is not cheap, but it requires an electroplated under coat, either copper or nickel.
For the extra expense Schwinn charges, by cheeping out on the chrome, it's done a disservice to their future. And the future of their "Collectible", "celebratory" product. "Don't play with them, they are collectible valued only" No warning signs: " WARNING: DO NOT leave out in the rain!"
Because, that cheap chrome job leaves nothing to celebrate.
Unless you own, both Huffy and Murray companies too. In that case, the celebration is: "We conquered the best competition"
The best example is/was the 1995 Black Phantoms, and follows through with the rest of Schwinn stock. For $1,500 or $2,000 price range,, they china cheeped out on the Chrome.. Chrome is not cheap, but it requires an electroplated under coat, either copper or nickel.
For the extra expense Schwinn charges, by cheeping out on the chrome, it's done a disservice to their future. And the future of their "Collectible", "celebratory" product. "Don't play with them, they are collectible valued only" No warning signs: " WARNING: DO NOT leave out in the rain!"
Because, that cheap chrome job leaves nothing to celebrate.
Unless you own, both Huffy and Murray companies too. In that case, the celebration is: "We conquered the best competition"
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When the buying power of the American wage was greater, that is when we had far less income disparity, America could make a reasonable bike and pay it's factory workers decently. Our bicycle companies were lobbied out of existence when tariff's protecting our workers from foreign dumping got eliminated. Domestic bike companies could not compete against dirt cheap foreign labor, even though our government decreed that imports were not a threat to domestic production. And its not just bikes, virtually everything we buy now is no longer made by us.
Changes to laws regulating domestic and world finances beginning in the 1970s favored the corporations, not our workers, they lobbied to get their stuff made in other countries, and brought back the goods with little import duties. Our people lost their jobs, and the guys who imported the cheaply made stuff got even more wealthy, and we got stuck buying junk. Our workers could not compete on an even level with the Asian cost of labor, when laws were changed to remove barriers on the import of cheaply made foreign goods. It was about maximum profit at any cost!
The corporate super powers were not content with making decent profits, they had to make super maximum no holds barred profits, even if it meant outsourcing jobs, and destroying the American middle class. It's was not a question of consumers demanding cheap goods, when changes to laws and importation rules were out of their hands. One very small group of citizens got extremely wealthy with these changes, and the rest of us paid for it. Our nations wealth flowed upwards, it did not trickle down. And this is why we have no more Schwinn, Columbia, Huffy, Murray, AMF, Ross, Stelber/Iverson, Rollfast, Persons or Mesinger seats, Ashtabula stems etc etc. And this is just for the domestic bike industry. It was big business and corporate greed that demanded super profits ahead of nation building, and it really screwed up the decent situation we had. Record income disparity tells the whole story. Cheap bikes? Yeah! That's what we got now. The Fritz fifty is a good example of exploitation without substance.
Changes to laws regulating domestic and world finances beginning in the 1970s favored the corporations, not our workers, they lobbied to get their stuff made in other countries, and brought back the goods with little import duties. Our people lost their jobs, and the guys who imported the cheaply made stuff got even more wealthy, and we got stuck buying junk. Our workers could not compete on an even level with the Asian cost of labor, when laws were changed to remove barriers on the import of cheaply made foreign goods. It was about maximum profit at any cost!
The corporate super powers were not content with making decent profits, they had to make super maximum no holds barred profits, even if it meant outsourcing jobs, and destroying the American middle class. It's was not a question of consumers demanding cheap goods, when changes to laws and importation rules were out of their hands. One very small group of citizens got extremely wealthy with these changes, and the rest of us paid for it. Our nations wealth flowed upwards, it did not trickle down. And this is why we have no more Schwinn, Columbia, Huffy, Murray, AMF, Ross, Stelber/Iverson, Rollfast, Persons or Mesinger seats, Ashtabula stems etc etc. And this is just for the domestic bike industry. It was big business and corporate greed that demanded super profits ahead of nation building, and it really screwed up the decent situation we had. Record income disparity tells the whole story. Cheap bikes? Yeah! That's what we got now. The Fritz fifty is a good example of exploitation without substance.
I bought one, impulse buy I admit it! I have #283 here in NW Ohio.
First post here, I almost didn't sign up when I read the first few pages of this thread but I felt obligated to share my story ... At 10 years old (1978) I had a second hand orange krate ... I've no idea what year it was, when I was 10 I didn't care - all I know is that I could steal my neighbors apples and get on my krate and pop a wheelie and ride it as far as I wanted, around corners, no handed while eating that apple and I felt like a boss!
When I walked into that dealer last week looking for new bikes for my kids (I'm 46 now) and saw it sitting on a high display I just pointed and told my wife "I want it" and she bought it for me.
The above posts are true, we've screwed up our economy through apathy, greed and uninvolvment, Kennedy imposed a tarrif on imports (50%) and it was removed in 64 (guess who - LBJ & his "great society" pffft ... Democrats
I'm not republican, tea partier or take part in any group movement or party line ... I'm American and my bias is one that developed in my core around ten years old. When I got the bike home & saw the made in China sticker my heart broke (I never even considered it could be made in China) I just felt ripped off... But then I rode it and something wonderful happened - a wheelie
A little two and a half pedal off balance wheelie put a smile on my face and forced memories to the surface that I hadn't thought about for 20-30 years!
I've already scraped the left rear shock & I will be scraping more, I'll be tweaking things and reliving those actions the same way I did when I was 10.... I planted three new apple trees at the top of my backyard hill earlier this summer, till then when they bear fruit I'll be stealing my apples from my wife's bowl on the kitchen counter and popping wheelies.
Sometimes being a kid again trumps all the change & politics & money & hate.
We get one go around, enjoy it... I am sure gonna try to myself
First post here, I almost didn't sign up when I read the first few pages of this thread but I felt obligated to share my story ... At 10 years old (1978) I had a second hand orange krate ... I've no idea what year it was, when I was 10 I didn't care - all I know is that I could steal my neighbors apples and get on my krate and pop a wheelie and ride it as far as I wanted, around corners, no handed while eating that apple and I felt like a boss!
When I walked into that dealer last week looking for new bikes for my kids (I'm 46 now) and saw it sitting on a high display I just pointed and told my wife "I want it" and she bought it for me.
The above posts are true, we've screwed up our economy through apathy, greed and uninvolvment, Kennedy imposed a tarrif on imports (50%) and it was removed in 64 (guess who - LBJ & his "great society" pffft ... Democrats
I'm not republican, tea partier or take part in any group movement or party line ... I'm American and my bias is one that developed in my core around ten years old. When I got the bike home & saw the made in China sticker my heart broke (I never even considered it could be made in China) I just felt ripped off... But then I rode it and something wonderful happened - a wheelie
A little two and a half pedal off balance wheelie put a smile on my face and forced memories to the surface that I hadn't thought about for 20-30 years!
I've already scraped the left rear shock & I will be scraping more, I'll be tweaking things and reliving those actions the same way I did when I was 10.... I planted three new apple trees at the top of my backyard hill earlier this summer, till then when they bear fruit I'll be stealing my apples from my wife's bowl on the kitchen counter and popping wheelies.
Sometimes being a kid again trumps all the change & politics & money & hate.
We get one go around, enjoy it... I am sure gonna try to myself
love the crash !
