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I never have a hub listed. I enter the measurements and just use the number of spokes and how many crosses, and go back and forth with 2, 3 and 4 cross to see what's closest to the spokes I have on hand. On my present build that's how I knew only 2 cross would work on the rear wheel. My front wheel is 4 cross.
 
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us56456712 said:
The spoke calculations were off. The hubs not centered in the rim. I tried shorter spokes on the drive side to try and pull the hub over but they wouldn’t cross, too short. I ordered longer spokes for the non drive side to see if I can push the hub over. What a pain.
Click to expand...

Hang in there. I have miscalculated spoke lengths several times. Easy to get frustrated, sometimes I have to remind myself that I’m having fun. Look on the bright side you get to build a wheel again!

I just label the spokes and throw them in a drawer for the future.

However, it sounds like you are describing a wheel that is out of dish. Keep in mind that the spokes on the left and right very often need different tensions. You can move the rim to the left or right this way. Either tighten all the right hand nipples half a turn. Or loosen all the left nipples half a turn. Or vice versa. It can be confusing, but it works.

Dishing the wheel is all about spoke tension, not spoke length.
 
Waiting for the clear coat to dry, so I ran your numbers, guessed on a couple so it's not perfect. 26 x 1 3/8ths (590) rim? I just laced one that size for my latest build, so I used 570 as ERD, your rims may be different. The locknut to flanges numbers are guessed also, but this shows how it works.


spokes.jpg
 
twojs.bike said:
In fact, changing the spoke length will not help with dishing. It will only make the spokes too long or too short.

Dishing is all about tension.
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It’s almost two inches dished the wrong way, tension won’t bring it back. It needs the correct spoke length, which is illusive. The spoke tension chart indicates that this size wheel needs more tension than other 26 inch wheels, both sides. The spokes are tightened to the correct depth and off that much. I clearly screwed up the calculations.
 
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Wildcat said:
Waiting for the clear coat to dry, so I ran your numbers, guessed on a couple so it's not perfect. 26 x 1 3/8ths (590) rim? I just laced one that size for my latest build, so I used 570 as ERD, your rims may be different. The locknut to flanges numbers are guessed also, but this shows how it works.


View attachment 259558
Click to expand...

K is 117mm.
IMG_0298.jpeg
 
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Wildcat said:
Waiting for the clear coat to dry, so I ran your numbers, guessed on a couple so it's not perfect. 26 x 1 3/8ths (590) rim? I just laced one that size for my latest build, so I used 570 as ERD, your rims may be different. The locknut to flanges numbers are guessed also, but this shows how it works.


View attachment 259558
Click to expand...
Thanks, I never would have figured that out. I’ll try it.
 
Here is my result using the spoke calculator that Wildcat uses. It’s wrong for sure. I already tried 267mm spokes and their way too short to cross. Seems like 270mm might be right for the left side as they cross and end out correct in the nipple. Most f my calculators that I used had in the vicinity of 270, except the Sapim, (see above) which were longer on both sides. It might be right? It’s the other side that I haven’t figured out yet. My original spokes were 270 and 275 and it’s way off not centered. I took it to the best wheel builder here to look at and he said it couldn’t be corrected with the spokes in it, too far off. That just confirmed my suspicion. Next I’ll try 276 and see how far it’s off. Then it it moved over and the 270 s still work, but it can’t be centered I’ll probably try 277. That’s what’s in my mind now.
IMG_0299.jpeg
 
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I also always use the ProWheelbuilder calculator as @Wildcat does and have never had a bad result. You MUST input the correct numbers...check, double check and then check again the numbers and measurements of your hub and rim. ProWheelbuilder cannot give you a bad spoke length if you input the correct numbers..... something is not being measured right or you put the wrong "crosses" into the calculator. Unfortunately, operator error (not correct figures) when using this calculator is why "It" gave you the wrong spoke length.
 
SILVERKINGPC said:
I also always use the ProWheelbuilder calculator as @Wildcat does and have never had a bad result. You MUST input the correct numbers...check, double check and then check again the numbers and measurements of your hub and rim. ProWheelbuilder cannot give you a bad spoke length if you input the correct numbers..... something is not being measured right or you put the wrong "crosses" into the calculator. Unfortunately, operator error (not correct figures) when using this calculator is why "It" gave you the wrong spoke length.
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I looked at the photos of the measurements again and they look exact, and entered on the form as such. I'm stumped. Even with some minor changes on the measurements the spokes calculated to about the same length. :39:
 
Your spokes are the correct length if the threads are engaged properly in the nipple without the spokes coming through the rim.

If that is the case, this is a spoke tension issue. It’s confusing, but imagine replacing one spoke on a wheel and the spoke is 5mm too long. It will stick through the rim 5mm. It won’t affect the dish.

Spoke length is very important, but it doesn’t affect dish.

Here is a thread that debates the topic. I am taking the side that dishing is about tension not length. One side of this wheel should have spokes that are significantly tighter than the other.

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/12506-wheel-dishing.html
 
My measurements are right. None
SILVERKINGPC said:
I also always use the ProWheelbuilder calculator as @Wildcat does and have never had a bad result. You MUST input the correct numbers...check, double check and then check again the numbers and measurements of your hub and rim. ProWheelbuilder cannot give you a bad spoke length if you input the correct numbers..... something is not being measured right or you put the wrong "crosses" into the calculator. Unfortunately, operator error (not correct figures) when using this calculator is why "It" gave you the wrong spoke length.
Click to expand...

None of the spoke length calculators give you a consistent answer. The hub is too weird. Never had a problem like this before. My measurements are right. Here 8 spoke hub holes on each side.
IMG_0052.jpeg
IMG_0059.jpeg
IMG_0061.jpeg
IMG_0065.jpeg
IMG_0067.jpeg
IMG_0070.jpeg
IMG_0071.jpeg
 
It’s a tension issue. Imagine if all of your spokes were 12 inches too long. As long as the threads were long enough you could build a wheel, but the spokes would stick out 12 inches. And you would have to cut them off. Just try to visualize that. Spoke length is not your issue.
 
It’s because the flange to center varies greatly from left to right. 26.5 to 39.5. If these values were equal (like on a front wheel with rim brakes) then you would need even tension on both sides. Since there is a significant difference you need a significant difference in tension.
 
Imagine which side you need to pull the rim towards to fix the dish. If it is the left side, then give each nipple on the left side one full turn. Then check the dish. You have nothing to lose.
 
twojs.bike said:
It’s because the flange to center varies greatly from left to right. 26.5 to 39.5. If these values were equal (like on a front wheel with rim brakes) then you would need even tension on both sides. Since there is a significant difference you need a significant difference in tension.
Click to expand...
Like I said I tried to tension it. Spoke length is off. You can’t move it over enough even if the spokes stick out and are hardly in on the other side. It’s way off. Dished the opposite side of a road bike wheel. Here is the result of the prowheelbuilder calculator. I already tried 267 and it’s too short to do 3 crosses.
IMG_0299.jpeg

Here is the result with the same data for the Sapim calculator.
IMG_0298.jpeg

I think the Sapim is the most correct of the 5 calculators I tried. A real wide length variation among all the calculators. Next I’m trying 270 and 276. This will either work or it will determine if I need 273 and 278. Most wheel builders I know feel the Sapim is the most accurate. I’ve never had to use it before as other calculators always worked.
 
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Is the wheel still laced? If the spokes are the wrong length, you can use your calipers to figure it out. If they are too short, measure how many mm of threads you can see. Add that to the spoke length. If they are too long measure how much they stick through the nipple and subtract.
 
twojs.bike said:
Is the wheel still laced? If the spokes are the wrong length, you can use your calipers to figure it out. If they are too short, measure how many mm of threads you can see. Add that to the spoke length. If they are too long measure how much they stick through the nipple and subtract.
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They are both sides flush with the nipple screwdriver slot. Nothing sticks out the nipple and no threads show on the other. Nice and tensioned but not centered right in the rim. It’s too far off to use the way you mentioned. I plan to try that when I use the 270 and 276 combo. If this isn’t right with 270 and 276 it will probably be close enough to measure threads etc.
 

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