Built vs Put together ??

[Bicycle808]

HonestHerman,I'm not sure if I'm one of the ppl you've counted as "upset", but I can assure you, I'm not. I'm just a little bit hecklish about these kinds of goofy discussions.

I think where you & I disagree is on the distinction between building a *frame* and building a *bike*. In retail terms, this is the difference between ordering up a "frameset" vs ordering a "complete". In builders' terms, we build a bike out of a frame and components, but we build a frame out of some tubes and possibly some brass or silver. Everyone knows that, if you do it right, building a frame is harder than bolting together some parts or lacing up some wheels. To say that you've "built" a bike by assembling components onto a frame is *not* the same as accepting mediocre standards vs building a frame from scratch. We're just talking about 2 different things, here, when we discuss building a bike vs building a frame.

 

[raggedjim]

I think I'm painting my next bicycle ochre and calling it Medi-ochre...

I realize not all bikes are on the same level but, as CeeBee mentions, the fact that someone put any effort into a bicycle at all deserves some small amount of acknowledgement.

Looking back at the build-offs I think the voting on the builds pretty much reflects the effort and thought that went into the bikes.

Before I post anything I always think "how will others perceive this permanent electronic record of my character?" Well, some bicycles here may be mediocre, but I'd be less than a gentleman to point it out. (with the exception of one highly unsafe build I tried to help out with, but you know how it is, you can't change anyone's opinion on the internet... me included)

Good luck, Rg

 

[Donovan]

IIFIFM makes a good point regarding the standard definitions of the terms involved here....

I still feel like we, as bicyclists/hobbyists/(dare I say it?)builders, need to respect common usage of terms as the appear among the bike mechanics' jargon. As I'd mentioned up-thread, I used to work at a bike shop. If the owner asked me to "build those Nirves", and I said "whatever, dude; I'm just gonna assemble them, b/c I didn't fab the frame!!!!", that would make me more of a tool than the wrenches I'd use for those "builds".

To be fair, this isn't the type of situation where I'd swell up like a toad with pride and say "yep, I built ten bikes today!", because let's face it: it's no big deal. But, still, if someone asked me if I'd built those Nirves, I wouldn't be like "NO!!! I just assembled them!!! And I didn't build the bike I rode in on, either; I custom assembled it!"

If you're in construction, did you not build the house, b/c you didn't mill the lumber, or fire the clay to make the bricks?

This discussion is absurd, and it exists only to stoke egos and cut other folks down. If you wanna take pride in the frames you've built, that's awesome. I can't wait til I have the time, skill, and tools to braze my own frames. But I see no sense in making a distinction between whether or not you've built the frame itself when deciding whether or not you've built the bike. It's pedantic, it's snobby, and it doesn't reflect well on those who do it.

This sounds like a fair assessment. Taking parts out of a box and assembling them according to an instruction sheet would be just that, assembling. I would argue that if you take a finished bike and buy a bunch of parts that were not meant for that bike and added and created your own thing, that could be considered building.

I don't want for the people (like myself) that "build" bikes by putting on parts and doing stuff to be offended. I'm glad that this has turned into something of a fair discussion however. As with nearly anything bike related, it's mostly subjective and anybody can decide for themselves.

 

[Bicycle808]

See, I disagree. Even if it's "just" a simple assembly job, it's still technically a build. My point is, building a bike isn't necessarily a big deal. As with most things, there are different grades of difficulty, but even at its highest form, building a bike isn't rocket science.

My Grandfather was an engineer. He built nuclear reactors. I'll never top that, not with a bicycle. Build what you want, how you want. Don't let anyone tell you you didn't build your ride, but don't try to disqualify other folks' builds either.

Be proud of whatcha built, but don't get a big head about it. :mrgreen:

 

[oldfart36]

"I would add this! we all have piles of parts. Sometimes it's just plain fun just to see what you can come up with!! Let someone else worry about labeling the effort.It's All In How Ya Hold Your Tongue."


Kinda Like. "Please come in young lady and take off your clothing, I must inspect. Dont worry about a thing, I AM A DOCTOR! :roll:

Yep, I saw it! While I choose to ignore it, I will say this!

In all your vast knowledge, you might want to learn how to use the "quote" button. Lot less typing or copy and pasting! :roll:

 

[Ldog33]

Maybe the title of this thread shoud be, Put together vs fabricated?

 

[thatismytruck]

When I was 12 I had this model and made it

When I was 45 I bought scavenged rescued an odd collection of parts to make this

Note I use the words make and made to avoid the parsing of words that is happening in this thread. Parsing words gets you no where fast. Who ever started this thread is spitting hairs on the difference between built and put together. I would argue that the definition of built IS put together.

stop being idiots and go work on your bike. If I was a moderator I would delete this thread. sheesh

 

[Bicycle808]

Bicycle808--you have me stoked about build a nuclear powered bike now!

It's about time! :shock:

When I was 12 I had this model and made it

stop being idiots and go work on your bike. If I was a moderator I would delete this thread. sheesh

You didn't make that!

Seriously, I've labeled this as a goofy semantics discussion from day one, but I'm as guilty of it as anyone else. Built, made, assembled, put together, whatever: these are all essentially synonyms. I, personally, think it's pretty sad that folks are trying to put some sort of snob appeal/cache on some of 'em, and trying to patronize the others....

You're right, maybe this thread should be deleted.... or locked and stickied, as a cautionary tale. Kinda like how we're discouraged from discussing the definition of "rat"; maybe we shouldn't be defining "built", either. :roll:

 

[kingfish254]

No need for deletion. Discussion between adults (even misguided ones) aint gonna hurt no one.

 

[socal_jack]

I wouldn't worry too much about the semantics of "built" versus "put together", at virtually any level you could get picky, like did you mine the ore, stamp it, refine and smelt the steel, then roll the tubing? Don't get hung up and have fun.

 

[honestherman]

In an effort to make everyone happy. Why not use the word Build and rename them as Build levels, rated upon skill it takes to create the Bike.

Build Level 1 =very basic
Build Level 2 = stock bolt on stuff from different bikes and years
Build Level 3 = Custom made bolt on stuff
Build Level 4 = redesigned frame and riding position.
Build level 5 = redesign frame and riding position. You did 100% of the custom fabrication work yourself

How can we compare the work of a 12-14 year old with no welding or painting experience to a 45 year old with design and welding experience?
Everyone is still qualified, even if you did not do the welding, But you had to design it. Even if you did not do the pinstripe work on it.
Its a win for everyone.
But obviously Level 5 can not be in same class side by side with Level 1

 

[raggedjim]

In an effort to make everyone happy. Why not use the word Build and rename them as Build levels, rated upon skill it takes to create the Bike.

Build Level 1 =very basic
Build Level 2 = stock bolt on stuff from different bikes and years
Build Level 3 = Custom made bolt on stuff
Build Level 4 = redesigned frame and riding position.
Build level 5 = redesign frame and riding position. You did 100% of the custom fabrication work yourself

How can we compare the work of a 12-14 year old with no welding or painting experience to a 45 year old with design and welding experience?
Everyone is still qualified, even if you did not do the welding, But you had to design it. Even if you did not do the pinstripe work on it.
Its a win for everyone.
But obviously Level 5 can not be in same class side by side with Level 1

For the most part everyone IS happy with the way things are. Yes, talented guys win the build-offs, yes, I will continue to encourage guys who don't have the resources to build mind-blowing bikes, and yes, I like seeing basic builds next to eye-popping designs and well-executed bikes. Actually some of my favorite builds are clean and simple. And some of the teenagers on here make my work look amatuerish (which I fully realize it is, I have no special skills to speak of)

I don't think there's a need to change the site at all.

Good luck, Rg

 

[honestherman]

I was never suggesting a change to THIS SITE.
But again input was asked for and I gave mine.
Good Luck, I give up.
Bye...

 

[kingfish254]

This is really getting silly but thought provoking. Just think about it. You are proposing 5, count them 5 different certification levels for building BIKES!! Really??? We are talking about BIKES!! As much as I love this hobby, it still boils down to a bunch of adults playing with toys. No matter how serious or thought provoking a bike discussion may get, it's still about BIKES. FIVE LEVELS!!!!! :mrgreen: :roll:

 

[Bicycle808]

This is really getting silly but thought provoking. Just think about it. You are proposing 5, count them 5 different certification levels for building BIKES!! Really??? We are talking about BIKES!! As much as I love this hobby, it still boils down to a bunch of adults playing with toys. No matter how serious or thought provoking a bike discussion may get, it's still about BIKES. FIVE LEVELS!!!!! :mrgreen: :roll:

I agree enthusiastically. There's no way that five levels would ever be sufficient. I propose two dozen levels, with Level 24 requiring that you mine the ore, refine it, smelt it, and roll the tubes yourself (as suggested above.)

:shock: :roll: :mrgreen: :lol: not sure which face denotes sarcasm....

 

[raggedjim]

I was never suggesting a change to THIS SITE.
But again input was asked for and I gave mine.
Good Luck, I give up.
Bye...

Now I'm confused, I thought we were talking about builds (sorry, assemblies) on this site. Are you saying that if I sell one of my bikes in real life (not digital life), and someone asks if I built it, I should say "Yes, I build-level-2'd it"? (actually, I kinda like that, it's like our own secret language...)

Don't give up, I never meant to rustle your jimmies, and I know about people who have to catagorize things, I'm married to one!

Rg

 

[kingfish254]

This is really getting silly but thought provoking. Just think about it. You are proposing 5, count them 5 different certification levels for building BIKES!! Really??? We are talking about BIKES!! As much as I love this hobby, it still boils down to a bunch of adults playing with toys. No matter how serious or thought provoking a bike discussion may get, it's still about BIKES. FIVE LEVELS!!!!! :mrgreen: :roll:

I agree enthusiastically. There's no way that five levels would ever be sufficient. I propose two dozen levels, with Level 24 requiring that you mine the ore, refine it, smelt it, and roll the tubes yourself (as suggested above.)

:shock: :roll: :mrgreen: :lol: not sure which face denotes sarcasm....

Oh no, with that many levels, it could become the next Facebook game - Mafia Bike Farm Wars.

 

[kingfish254]

Somehow this video just fits this thread!
:arrow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbVKWCpNFhY

 

[Bicycle808]

I was going for several clicks below "maximum sarcasm". Can't wait for the bike build facebook game; in the meantime, I'm heading over to the RRBO/ regular "Builds" forums to assign each bike a Level.

Fugsley is a Level 2-minus, class B. Step it up, Kingfish.

 

[Dorian]

I like to see classic frames with custom made forks and other parts put on. Especially springer forks, like the leaf spring jobs. A big part of RatRod bikes is what you ad to the coolest original frame you can find. This is where I look for the hand made parts. I want to see the repainted or patina'd original frames with the owners home built components attached to it. You can't make everything, and sometimes using an original frame is better than trying to make your own original design. It's hard to top a lot of the original frames in the looks department. Custom bikes are always a ratio of hand made, store bought and modified parts. How that ratio is made up is up to the owner. Not too many 100% hand made/fabricated bikes out there.