Pope Roger bike build

[BartRidesEternal]

Hi guys,

I started my crossframe build in the "Barts Eternal Builds" thread, but considering I will be fabricating more stuff I decided to give this (slow) build its own thread.

First the bike:

The story:
I have been looking for a crossframe/pastors bike for some time now and they are not hard to find! But I have certain design wishes that is/are not available on the market:

• Around 73 degree seat tube angle.
• Fat 28/29inch tires.
• Steel cross frame.
• Horizontal dropout.

This bike comes quite close: The frame is a "Azor Abdij":

(Also checkout the Azor IFL for fun purposes)

But this frame has a "relaxed" seating position with a 67 degree seat tube angle.

So I decided to build my own frame with the features that I like on a bicycle:

• CroMoly tube cross frame. (Lugging a frame was not an option unfortunately).
• Around 73 degree seat tube angle.
• 29+ tires.
• Surly ECR 29+ front fork with all its possibilities.
• Horizontal dropout.
• Ashtabula bottom bracket/single piece crank. Or a three piece BMX version.
• Coasterbrake rear hub.
• Near indestructable

Where am I now in this build?
I made a CAD design, cut the tubes and made a simple frame JIG. Pictures below:

Unfinished CAD model.

Crank for mockup purposes: I can use this and fabricate a rubber seal to keep out dirt.

Frame tubes partially cut, bend and tossed on the floor.

And the coasterbrake:

Always loved coasterbrakes, BMXed with them as a kid and forgot them for many years...
Now having seen the "Hack bike derby", after that the "Coasterbrake challenge" and discovered Klunking (and commuting with a singlespeed coasterbrake bicycle) I started appreciating them again.
Having cycled with the Shimano CB-e110 and klunking with the Sturmey Archer S1C, I am starting to find out what makes them so great and what the flaws of the current available hubs are...
Most modern hubs are based on old hub principles... not that that's a bad thing!
But the main thing I dislike is this maintainance part: Sand in the bearings because of inadequate dust caps. I had to repack a CB-e110 hub because of this about every two months. While cycling with a "industrial bearing" Sturmey Archer X-RDC took me years to break it.

I decided to design a new coasterbrake hub with the following (goal) features:

1. Sealed industrial bearings.
2. Simple and require no special tools to maintain.
3. Better cooling than existing hubs (have to put this in numbers, or just test (smoke) hubs).
4. 120mm width for dropouts.
5. Same range in weight as existing hubs.

I hope to take you with me in this design process!

First, inspiration:
Klunking, Repack, Coaster brake challenge.

Investigation:

I looked a old hubs and workings: Morrow, New departure, Favorit, Bendix, simplex cycloide (not a coasterbrake, but industrial bearings!).

• Current available hub: Shimano CB-E110 (almost same mechanics as the Bendix Red Band).
• Current available hub: Velosteel (same working as the "Favorit" hub).
• Current available hub: Sturmey Archer S1C (Ratchet/rollerbrake hub, great stopping power!).

That coaster arm, great idea make it available for all frames "fits any bicycle")

Inner workings of a "Velosteel" hub.

Principle with balls!

Shimano driver and clutch.

Interesting design, it has "multi cycle thread" so that the axial displacement will be greater with each turn!

After disassembling various hubs and checking the (in my opinion) pros and cons:

Shimano CB-E110:

• Pros: Simple design, reliable, very good bearing races, clutch design which does multiple tasks, tough shell, relatively cheap to buy, spare parts plenty available, very easy to service).
• Cons: Cup and cone bearings (if you compare them with the efficiency of industrial bearings), inadequate dust caps, not much surface area for cooling/steel shell?

Velosteel:

• Pros: Tough design, large brake pads, good quality internal parts.
• Cons: Brakes can lockup with the roller ball design and the roller ball design within the brake pads actually turns when you are pedalling the bike, which causes friction.

Sturmey Archer S1C:

• Pros: Good quality parts! Looks good, great stopper (skidding) power, aluminum hub shell, dust caps are better than previous hubs.
• Cons: Less simple parts and less standard, so more difficult to fix when the sh*t hits the fan, requires more 'special' tools to completely overhaul.

The bendix red band is almost the same as the Shimano CB-e110, but has different measurements and brake pad design. Also the clutch spring is a tad bit different.

What does a coaster brake hub do?

1. Pedalling: Driver and cog moves forward, takes the hub shell with it.
2. Coasting: Hub shell runs free. No braking, no pedalling.
3. Braking: Pedal backward, the brake is initiated, the brake pads move outward against the hub shell lining and creates friction.

After all this information searching drawing ugly sketches a first 'good' concept drawing came out:

This is a very rough concept! I have much more designs up my sleeve

• It features the same cone-clutch as the Bendix and Shimano.
• It features the same brake pad design as the Bendix red band.
• Industrial bearings (did some market research). The most difficult part is: Cup and Cone bearings do not require much space compared to industrial ones.

I still have to do calculations before creating a CAD design.
If there are questions, just ask them!

 

[MattiThundrrr]

Lots of words there, I'll have to ponder on that a bit. But I like the frame idea!

 

[Captain Awesome]

You had me at Surly!

 

[BartRidesEternal]

Lots of words there, I'll have to ponder on that a bit. But I like the frame idea!

What's to ponder Matti? Thanks though

 

[BartRidesEternal]

Update

So the build off 15 builds have to wait for parts to be shipped.

I took an hour to model some parts.
NOTE: This is not the finished product or ready parts, still rough mockups.

Calculations for torque, strength and safety are to be done.
After this, this model will lose some weight and get more final shapes and rounds. This (steel hubshell) baby you are seeing here, weighs about 1.12 kilogram (2,469 pounds). And not even all the parts are in!

On of the design decisions I am thinking about:

• Aluminum hub shell + extra steel part for the clutch-cone to grab in.
• Steel hub shell.

Alright, enough words to ponder on

Pictures!

Thanks for watching!

 

[moleman]

Hi guys,

I started my crossframe build in the "Barts Eternal Builds" thread, but considering I will be fabricating more stuff I decided to give this (slow) build its own thread.

First the bike:

The story:
I have been looking for a crossframe/pastors bike for some time now and they are not hard to find! But I have certain design wishes that is/are not available on the market:

• Around 73 degree seat tube angle.
• Fat 28/29inch tires.
• Steel cross frame.
• Horizontal dropout.

This bike comes quite close: The frame is a "Azor Abdij":

(Also checkout the Azor IFL for fun purposes)

But this frame has a "relaxed" seating position with a 67 degree seat tube angle.

So I decided to build my own frame with the features that I like on a bicycle:

• CroMoly tube cross frame. (Lugging a frame was not an option unfortunately).
• Around 73 degree seat tube angle.
• 29+ tires.
• Surly ECR 29+ front fork with all its possibilities.
• Horizontal dropout.
• Ashtabula bottom bracket/single piece crank. Or a three piece BMX version.
• Coasterbrake rear hub.
• Near indestructable

Where am I now in this build?
I made a CAD design, cut the tubes and made a simple frame JIG. Pictures below:

Unfinished CAD model.

Crank for mockup purposes: I can use this and fabricate a rubber seal to keep out dirt.

Frame tubes partially cut, bend and tossed on the floor.

And the coasterbrake:

Always loved coasterbrakes, BMXed with them as a kid and forgot them for many years...
Now having seen the "Hack bike derby", after that the "Coasterbrake challenge" and discovered Klunking (and commuting with a singlespeed coasterbrake bicycle) I started appreciating them again.
Having cycled with the Shimano CB-e110 and klunking with the Sturmey Archer S1C, I am starting to find out what makes them so great and what the flaws of the current available hubs are...
Most modern hubs are based on old hub principles... not that that's a bad thing!
But the main thing I dislike is this maintainance part: Sand in the bearings because of inadequate dust caps. I had to repack a CB-e110 hub because of this about every two months. While cycling with a "industrial bearing" Sturmey Archer X-RDC took me years to break it.

I decided to design a new coasterbrake hub with the following (goal) features:

1. Sealed industrial bearings.
2. Simple and require no special tools to maintain.
3. Better cooling than existing hubs (have to put this in numbers, or just test (smoke) hubs).
4. 120mm width for dropouts.
5. Same range in weight as existing hubs.

I hope to take you with me in this design process!

First, inspiration:
Klunking, Repack, Coaster brake challenge.

Investigation:

I looked a old hubs and workings: Morrow, New departure, Favorit, Bendix, simplex cycloide (not a coasterbrake, but industrial bearings!).

• Current available hub: Shimano CB-E110 (almost same mechanics as the Bendix Red Band).
• Current available hub: Velosteel (same working as the "Favorit" hub).
• Current available hub: Sturmey Archer S1C (Ratchet/rollerbrake hub, great stopping power!).

That coaster arm, great idea make it available for all frames "fits any bicycle")

Inner workings of a "Velosteel" hub.

Principle with balls!

Shimano driver and clutch.

Interesting design, it has "multi cycle thread" so that the axial displacement will be greater with each turn!

After disassembling various hubs and checking the (in my opinion) pros and cons:

Shimano CB-E110:

• Pros: Simple design, reliable, very good bearing races, clutch design which does multiple tasks, tough shell, relatively cheap to buy, spare parts plenty available, very easy to service).
• Cons: Cup and cone bearings (if you compare them with the efficiency of industrial bearings), inadequate dust caps, not much surface area for cooling/steel shell?

Velosteel:

• Pros: Tough design, large brake pads, good quality internal parts.
• Cons: Brakes can lockup with the roller ball design and the roller ball design within the brake pads actually turns when you are pedalling the bike, which causes friction.

Sturmey Archer S1C:

• Pros: Good quality parts! Looks good, great stopper (skidding) power, aluminum hub shell, dust caps are better than previous hubs.
• Cons: Less simple parts and less standard, so more difficult to fix when the sh*t hits the fan, requires more 'special' tools to completely overhaul.

The bendix red band is almost the same as the Shimano CB-e110, but has different measurements and brake pad design. Also the clutch spring is a tad bit different.

What does a coaster brake hub do?

1. Pedalling: Driver and cog moves forward, takes the hub shell with it.
2. Coasting: Hub shell runs free. No braking, no pedalling.
3. Braking: Pedal backward, the brake is initiated, the brake pads move outward against the hub shell lining and creates friction.

After all this information searching drawing ugly sketches a first 'good' concept drawing came out:

This is a very rough concept! I have much more designs up my sleeve

• It features the same cone-clutch as the Bendix and Shimano.
• It features the same brake pad design as the Bendix red band.
• Industrial bearings (did some market research). The most difficult part is: Cup and Cone bearings do not require much space compared to industrial ones.

I still have to do calculations before creating a CAD design.
If there are questions, just ask them!

Very nice! I have toyed with the idea of having a custom shell machined for some existing coaster brake guts for some ti.e now. I figured that I would make the hib fit mountain bike spacing (135mm?) And that would give me enough space to fit sealed bearings and a cromo axle. Good luck with your project!

 

[BartRidesEternal]

Very nice! I have toyed with the idea of having a custom shell machined for some existing coaster brake guts for some ti.e now. I figured that I would make the hib fit mountain bike spacing (135mm?) And that would give me enough space to fit sealed bearings and a cromo axle. Good luck with your project!

Moleman thanks!!
Cup and cone bearings are very good space wise. They do not take much space, whilst being an angular contact bearing.
The easiest way to do it (my thoughts) is to take a Shimano CBE110, slap a longer M10x1 CrMo axle on there and add spacers for the 135mm setup.
I thought I saw "coasterculture" offer these bits.
I use a shrinksleeve or inner tube to create a little bit better seals for the CBE110 hub. Very cheap!

 

[BartRidesEternal]

Little update post
I finished a complete concept hand drawing/sketch with measurements.

With my 'weird/interesting' ideas I found a new type of coasterbrake-braking system, and I think with great cooling capabilities!
I can't post a picture here yet, because of a company interested in this idea.

The thing I did found out while putting all measurements in numbers:

-120mm width is probably too narrow to house the braking system, initially I wanted cruisers/klunkers to fit this one as well.
It will probably be 130-135mm eventually.

-Chainline right now is 45mm, maybe I will keep this measurement, maybe widen it a bit, depends on the market research (what do other hubs use?).

-Spoke flanges are now 64mm apart, with one flange positioned 39mm from the hubs centre, the other flange (you can probably guess it) 15mm, which is too little to keep spokes from snapping while doing a good skid. This is why the hub will likely be 135mm in width.

-Steel hub shell is the better option for this build at this point!

I hope to post pictures soon. When I have all the 3D CAD models, a 'prototype' hub will be 3D printed in the next months.

 

[BartRidesEternal]

Update on the design:

The company interested in this idea had to bail, they had money issue's due to the corona virus.
Since I can't afford some kind of patent, I decided to record the idea at the government as "my idea". So I can finish this thing and have some fun!
Why did I want to patent it? Its not that great of a idea... I'm just excited thats all.

What is it Bart?
It is a coasterbrake hub with disc. Back pedalling utilizes the mechanical or hydraulical disc brake. More information and thoughts below this post.

Picture time!
More information below the pictures.

With the larger hole pattern you can place your caliper about anywhere, so its suits your build/bike.
The smaller hole pattern is to check/fasten the six bolt disc. A centerlock disc requires a "special tool", something I don't like/try to avoid.

Covers and/or seals need to be added in the space between the hub shell and the purple part.

With the larger hole pattern you can place your caliper about anywhere, so its suits your build/bike.
The smaller hole pattern is to check/fasten the six bolt disc. A centerlock disc requires a "special tool", something I don't like/try to avoid.

Rear view. The hub is about 120mm's wide (nut to nut) so far.

Why?
I have a thing for coasterbrakes. And this one is fitted with a disc brake for cooling purposes and fitted with industrial sealed standard bearings. Because I dislike more new standards in the cycling industry.

Pro's and Con's: (my view)
Pro's:

1. Can be fitted to bicycles without disc brakes.
2. No cables or hoses, can be beneficial for looks and folding bicycles.
3. Great cooling capacity compared to other coasterbrake hubs.
4. Design can be fitted with 160 to 203+ discs by changing the red adapter (post mount).
5. Simple serviceable design so far. Can be fitted with internal gears spacewise.
6. Cheap design, could be a replacement for the Shimano CB-E110 for example.

Con's:

1. Heavier than a standard singlespeed disc hub with cables and levers.
2. Some design compromises in flange width due to the coasterarm.

So what do you guys think? Do you consider this to be a "coasterbrake"? Or not?

I was thinking about names, I came up with one or two:

"COBRA D1" (COasterBRAke Disc version 1)
"Jupiter hub" (because of the disc ring)

When all the 3D models are done, I am 3D printing this one first.

 

[RustyGold]

Neat project...but, I don't think it is a coaster brake if it has an external disk.

 

[moleman]

Oh no! I feel that if it is activated by back pedaling, it is definitely a coaster brake. Now I am trying to figure out how to make something like this, too cool. Good luck on patenting it and keep us updated, if you do a beta test run, there will be a lot of people willing to test it for you, me included!

 

[RustyGold]

Well...I guess that if one of the design inspirations is the coaster brake challenge...ask Paul.

 

[BartRidesEternal]

Thanks guys!

If I follow what Sheldon Brown is saying about "coasterbrakes":

• It allows the bicycle to roll without forcing the pedals to turn. This is the "coaster" part. It is similar in function to a freewheel , but uses a different sort of mechanism to accomplish it.
• It is also a brake, operated by turning the pedals backwards.

Then it does not matter how the braking part is done. If backpedalling throws an anchor of the bike... Sorry I am going too far.
It does not say anything about "how" the brake pads are constructed... inside the shell or outside.
But I do get what you are saying @RustyGold .

Is Paul from the coasterbrake challenge on the RRB forum? (absolute fan here!)

 

[RustyGold]

Thanks guys!

If I follow what Sheldon Brown is saying about "coasterbrakes":

• It allows the bicycle to roll without forcing the pedals to turn. This is the "coaster" part. It is similar in function to a freewheel , but uses a different sort of mechanism to accomplish it.
• It is also a brake, operated by turning the pedals backwards.

Then it does not matter how the braking part is done. If backpedalling throws an anchor of the bike... Sorry I am going too far.
It does not say anything about "how" the brake pads are constructed... inside the shell or outside.

It's hard to argue with Sheldon Brown knowledge

Is Paul from the coasterbrake challenge on the RRB forum? (absolute fan here!)

Yep... @rev106 !

 

[Duchess]

I think that's a great idea! But, yeah, there's probably not much money in it and then you still have to police the patent yourself and it's only valid in whatever country it's issued, there all kinds of ways around them, and Chinese manufacturers won't care, anyway. If it was cheap, the plaque with your name on it would be cool to have, but just getting the patent in the first place costs money.

 

[BartRidesEternal]

I think that's a great idea! But, yeah, there's probably not much money in it and then you still have to police the patent yourself and it's only valid in whatever country it's issued, there all kinds of ways around them, and Chinese manufacturers won't care, anyway. If it was cheap, the plaque with your name on it would be cool to have, but just getting the patent in the first place costs money.

You are probably right, the patent and money is nog that big of a deal for me, I just like it when people (happily ) use stuff that I designed

I changed the 3D model file of the hub shell to a "stereolithography" file for 3D printing and threw it in a webshop to get a price. Then you get to select a material and colour.

Well its 48000 euro's to get it in gold
And about 60 - 100 euro's to get it in grey or black plastic.

 

[BartRidesEternal]

It's hard to argue with Sheldon Brown knowledge

Yep... @rev106 !

Sheldon Brown saved me multiple times on information, especially in the bizarre world of bicycle standards.

Atomic cycles helped me out picking coasterbrakes

 

[BartRidesEternal]

Well...I guess that if one of the design inspirations is the coaster brake challenge...ask Paul.

@rev106 What are your thougts on a "backpedal hub with disc brake"?

 

[rev106]

@rev106 What are your thougts on a "backpedal hub with disc brake"?

Well it seems sort of redundant, but if you're having fun making it, why not?

 

[Dominicus]

That’s some great engineering! I think a coaster-disk is a great idea, no extra annoying ugly cables which can theoretically slip. It is more like a motorcycle foot break and would be a great safety improvement for e-bikes. Legs have better leverage than fingers.